Doing a little test plot

 

Well, been 7 days, zero germination, but I have not done the best job at keeping it moist to say the least. Might try reseeding after I give it a few more days.

 

Well wildcard again, in the test pot was starting to see some germination, After midnight was leading the way. Went to in-laws to fish, came home to the pot decimated from birds, garden as well. Pot is now reseeded with just straight 33% mix of after midnight, midnight, and Mazama.

Lost most of the green onions are lost in the garden as well. Makes me wonder how much I will be battling birds in the reno?

Anyone else have battles with bird in reno? Ideas to combat them? Live in town so a .22 won't do it.

 

Anyone else have battles with bird in reno? Ideas to combat them? Live in town so a .22 won't do it.

Reflective spinning pinwheels or some shiny balloons tied to a stake (or a few stakes around the reno area). Looks goofy, but deters the birds well.

 

Hopefully bird thing just sorts itself out in a few weeks. I've never had birds eat grass seed.

Are you planning to use PGR (Legacy?) on your existing lawn before you kill it to keep the mowing manageable? Or is that for next year after the Reno?

What's the existing lawn like, how old is it (if you know), and what's it composed of? And are you reno'ing everywhere or leaving part of the old for comparison (or whatever reason)?

 

I am currently using legacy, slowlying increasing rates. Mowing about once a week at 2.25". Seeing very good growth regulation out if it. Have cutless quickstop as well that I will be spiking the legacy with as well.

Just going to reno the front lawn, about 4500 sq feet but scattered out in 4 sections (damn hell strip). Currently it's poa annua, bluegrass, tttf, k-31, and a mix of fine fescues. Was established in 2005 and miss treated until i moved in the house in 2017.

I know bluegrass requires more water and no irrigation system, thinking about doing the orbit poly pipe diy 2 zone system and adding more zones to it with their 4 zone hose bib controller. That said these cultivars are so old that I believe I will in fact have to water the yard less than I currently am (besides the k-31 of course).

 

Well. Some of the seed from the first go around didnt get buried enough and still germinated. In the pictures the tiny seedlings are from the second go around. So about 8 days from seed down to germination.

Also added a picture of the lawn that will be nuked this fall to be replaced with 0.75" bluegrass. Currently in talks with superintendent friend about buying his crew lunch for a 26" John Deere 7 blade reel mower.

 

Good update.

What rate of Legacy did you start at, and what rate are you at now, and is mowing frequency still about the same as it was a few weeks ago?

Also, does Legacy have much of a smell (either the concentrated solution or the lawn itself during/after spraying)?

 

Just put down third app of the year of Legacy with propi. Temps are here and finally the humidity is as well for some disease to possibly pop. Went nuke rate with the Legacy at 35oz/acre and standard rate of propi at 1 oz. Laid off some areas struggling due to the lack of rain in the area. Currently in a moderate drought and expect to be upgraded to severe drought by the end of the week. Currently have the only lawn on the block that is green (rest are completely dormant with only the k-31 in their lawns not completely browned out). I do attribute a lot of my success to use of a pgr. Plant uses a lot less water when regulated. Havent watered much and still almost completely green.

@Green , yep all products with cutless in it has quite the stank. Its not the molecule itself because the wsp version does not smell, it is the emulsifiers used to keep it in suspension in the liquid form. So legacy, musketeer, and cutless mec will all have a obvious smell to them. The higher the rate, the more the smell. For this reason I spray at dusk when applying my Legacy.

 

@Supergrass

I typically spray an hour or so before dark, too.

Very disappointing to hear. What does it smell like (chemical smell?), and is it what you'd call noxious? Guessing the smell would be more like that of Propiconazole 14.3 than wet Milorganite, but never used Cutless MEC or mixes of it and other PGRs. My experience with Trinexapac-ethyl was that it's a fairly low odor solution. Anuew has a slight to moderate but very nauseating (to me) "herbicide-like" smell (like a three-way...I feel it in my stomach area), but I don't really notice it while wearing a "throwaway" style P95 mask. Is Cutless going have neighbors asking what in the #$&% I'm spraying, and threatening to call the department of Environmental Protection due to the smell wafting through the neighborhood on a humid night...lol? (Basically people knowing "he sprayed a weed killer or something"?) Hope not! Just wondering what I'm getting myself into. Hopefully the smell also dissipates by the next day.

Everybody has smells they think are offensive or not. I remember as a kid, I liked the smell of gasoline (not anymore, but formulas have also changed). I currently don't find acetone real offensive in small amounts, but I know it's toxic and causes a headache and much worse, so I avoid being closed up near it...e.g. former girlfriend with wet nail polish in the car...similar type of smell, but much worse.

Was actually looking at the Flurprimidol patent last night. Maybe they say what the additives are. Also guessing Cutless MEC must be almost black...the Legacy looks pretty dark online. Wonder if there is some sort of oil-type stuff in it. Hopefully not coal tar...that stuff smells horrible (and is toxic)!

Must've smelled great mixed with the Propiconazole. What's the intention behind using the "nuclear rate"of the Legacy this time?

Thankfully I normally only use lower rates of PGRs.

 

@Supergrass

I typically spray an hour or so before dark, too.

Very disappointing to hear. What does it smell like, and is it what you'd call noxious? Guessing the smell would be more like that of Propiconazole 14.3 than wet Milorganite, but never used Cutless MEC or mixes of it and other PGRs. My experience with Trinexapac-ethyl was that it's a fairly low odor solution. Anuew has a slight to moderate but very nauseating (to me) "herbicide-like" smell (like a three-way...I feel it in my stomach area), but I don't really notice it while wearing a "throwawy" P95 mask. Is Cutless going have neighbors asking what in the #$&% I'm spraying, and threatening to call the department of Environmental Protection due to the smell wafting through the neighborhood on a humid night...lol? Hope not! Just wondering what I'm getting myself into.

Thankfully I normally only used low rates of PGRs.

It does smell. And that would be a good way to describe it as a herbicide type smell or a strong propiconizole smell. Basically any ec or mec formulation will smell due to the emulfiers. I have been around chemicals for the past 20 years and it doesn't crack my top 10 worst. Dimension tops that list for me while signature smelled like cake mix to me and loved spraying it, never did try a taste. Legacy isn't as bad as straight cutless mec/quickstop. Sprayed quickstop on my plants and wife was certainly asking questions.

 

Thanks. Doesn't sound too terrible. Thankfully not like coal tar (see above; I edited my above post with more questions and more info after you replied, apparently).

Never used liquid Dimension, but I can imagine it from the granular...same x5, and good to know the liquid smells bad. To me, Anuew smells similar to Dimension granular...nauseating odor, but not overpowering intensity most of the time.

Going to post another PGR question on the site, btw...heads-up!

 

So kind of in a pickle here. Was easy to grow turf on the course because I was there 7 days a week but with the new job that requires travel planning seed down is going to be an issue without automatic irrigation. Looking to seed towards last week of August (My town does not allow new lawns to be planted in August but going to bend the rules a bit) but travel/ busy season coincides with that time.

Option 1: Seed 21st of August and be gone day 8 and 9 after seed down. Not ideal due to the freshly germinated seed possibly wilting and dying.

Option 2: Seed 28th of August and be gone day 3 and 4 after seed down.

Option 3: Push the limits of the town ordinance and seed the 18th and be gone day 11 and 12.

Option 4: Only seed area that has somewhat automatic irrigation and try to spring seed the other 3 smaller areas (1500 sq ft)

Option 5: One of you folks come to my house and water if for me 😆

No idea as of yet but will probably just seed it all the 21st (Option 1) and hope for the best and ask for help from the wife (unlikely). Option 1 will have me away das 8,9, 21, 22.

Edit: Should of just went with 4th millennium tttf. Anyone wanna trade haha.

 

Pot was reseeded 28th of May after birds demolished first seeding. Ended up just mixing all three cultivars together. Middle of pot took pretty good with sever neglect. New seedling were seeded July 6th.

Currently color of all three cultivars look very close so that is good. Some differences in leaf width is apparent but not unless you are up close. Overall happy with how it has done in a pot, neglected, and in the middle of the summer. Currently being trimmed at 3/4" with scissors.

 

I need reassurance. Looking like seed down date would be late August. 21st or 25th. Second guessing myself I won't have enough time. First frost is average of 10/10 and first freeze is 10/28 (28 degrees). Feel like I'm crunched for time and won't be able to get seed down and established to my liking before first frost. Possibly postponing until next fall, switching to tttf if I can sell what I have, or just doing a portion of the front lawn. Help me out here.

 

Quick update from the test pot. Mazama has lighter green and wider leaf blade. Possibly will pull it from the mix and just do after midnight and midnight.

 

Started killing yet? Are you using/just planning to use the regular cheap generic dimethylamine glyphosates? I saw some stuff about Amine salt vs. Potassium salt formulations having different properties (speed of kill). Never heard of anyone here using anything other than dimethylamine, or any discussions about different formulas here.



Hmm. I would definitely double check with other previous Mazama renovators before jumping to the conclusion that it might be lighter forever. It could just be, for instance, one of those varieties that takes a year or two to darken (like Bewitched is notorious for). I never heard anyone say anything here about Mazama being lighter than Midnight once fully established...and people here are some of the pickiest with regard to grass color...almost color snobs! Personally, I prefer a wider bladed leaf texture.

 

Ordenance around seed or watering? What fines do you risk?

Gly takes a week to really show up.

 

Ordenance around seed or watering? What fines do you risk?

Gly takes a week to really show up.

Ordinance states just no new lawns until September 1st. No idea the fines, issue I dont want to get in is them seeing my "irrigation" system.

 

Me personally would disregard this ordinance and plant the seed at the date needed for success.

 

Ladies and Gentlemen, no going back. Round up applied tonight. Only thing that could change now is kbg to tttf.

 

Wow, congrats...lol.

As far as no one seeing you watering, were you thinking of watering only at certain times, and is that even workable in your opinion? I mean, you kind of need to water in the middle of the day...no real way around that.

 

No way I will be able to get away only watering during the dark. Im just hoping the ordinance enforcement police, whomever they may be, is not driving by during one of my 10 min cycles.

If they do end up catching me, I do hope that stating my case and my background might get me out of any fines. I only look to violate the ordinance for possibly a week and a half.

Now if the HOA has anything to say about killing the lawn, I will be sending pictures of all the lawns in the neighborhood that are 12" tall and full of weeds. DEFUND THE HOA!

 

If they do end up catching me, I do hope that stating my case and my background might get me out of any fines. I only look to violate the ordinance for possibly a week and a half.

Like the idea, but your first option is always to plead ignorance. Unless you personally signed a one-page document stating you understand and will follow the ordinance, you act like you didn't know it existed. Other options include: playing the role of a landscaper/gardener hired to fix the lawn, you are family from out of town (i.e. not the homeowner), and, in the case that an "enforcement police" confronts you in person, you are deaf.

 

This made me crack up

 

Good luck! It seems to me based on my test pots for my reno that after midnight is very quick to germinate and establish for a KBG. Hopefully you get quick germination and no one notices!

 

@Supergrass

How much time are you allowing for most of the PGR to dissipate after the previous app before gerimination?

 

None at all really. Legacy was applied 2 weeks ago and wouldn't be burned up yet at seed down. Not worried at all about it besides it could be slowing the kill current lawn. Saw research that Legacy (might of been cutless) increased tillering on ryegrass so I am probably going to apply a low rate 1-2 weeks after first cut. Obviously will be checking with my research connection if he thinks it is a wise choice. I dont see why not. Inhibit top growth so plant tillers more.

 

None at all really. Legacy was applied 2 weeks ago and wouldn't be burned up yet at seed down. Not worried at all about it besides it could be slowing the kill current lawn. Saw research that Legacy (might of been cutless) increased tillering on ryegrass so I am probably going to apply a low rate 1-2 weeks after first cut. Obviously will be checking with my research connection if he thinks it is a wise choice. I dont see why not. Inhibit top growth so plant tillers more.

Interesting. A potential slowed kill being a positive to you due to the HOA and appearance of brown? Or a negative or neutral?

I forgot who it was (Maybe Ryan DeMay?) talking about research showing that if applied too early to new turf, PGRs probably (or at least have potential to) impede or slow essential processes that are responsible for early maturation. I guess that wouldn't necessarily be at odds with what you saw written about in Ryegrass when it's pretty much been cut once or twice...since much of those early processes might be complete by then. But what about KBG, being much slower?

Also, have you looked into the Mazama color development thing yet, or received any comments from others who have used it on that topic?

Check out fusebox7's Mazama reno journals as well (he's not currently active here but was one of the first to use it and renovated from a mixed lawn like you're doing). He's the one who contacted the manufacturer/owner/grower to find out that it was created from a cross of the Midnight and Unique KBG cultivars.

 

Interesting. A potential slowed kill being a positive to you due to the HOA and appearance of brown? Or a negative or neutral?

I forgot who it was (Maybe Ryan DeMay?) talking about research showing that if applied too early to new turf, PGRs probably (or at least have potential to) impede or slow essential processes that are responsible for early maturation. I guess that wouldn't necessarily be at odds with what you saw written about in Ryegrass when it's pretty much been cut once or twice...since much of those early processes might be complete by then. But what about KBG, being much slower?

Also, have you looked into the Mazama color development thing yet, or received any comments from others who have used it on that topic?

Check out fusebox7's Mazama reno journals as well (he's not currently active here but was one of the first to use it and renovated from a mixed lawn like you're doing). He's the one who contacted the manufacturer/owner/grower to find out that it was created from a cross of the Midnight and Unique KBG cultivars.

Slow kill is not a benefit. Sprayed two days ago and very little signs that it is dying.

Went back and looked at the research of the ryegrass, it was Legacy. Application made at 1 tiller stage with 18oz/A with carrier volume of 40 GPA. 42 days after treatment legacy had 18 tillers. Non treated 12. Primo 11. Anuew 11. Tillers decreased slightly when 26oz/A was applied of Legacy to 16 tillers.

Plant height was significantly reduced. 62 days after treatment: untreated 12 cm. Legacy 16oz 8cm. Anuew 25oz/A 14cm. Primo 22oz/A 13cm.

The color might not be that far off with the Mazama. Blade width is as pictured.

 

Getting slightly worried about the speed of kill currently going on. Current lawn is barely dinged by the gly as of now, almost 72 hours in. Rate on gly was on target and ams was in tank. Gly had surfactant already in. If this doesn't speed up I don't think I will have any other option than to go tttf.

 

When are you seeding?

I believe G-Man mentioned on your second page that it takes a week to notice the effect.

I have only used Glyphosate to kill weeds on our neighbors behind us that put a fence up and didn’t maintain 1K sq ft of their property. I got fed up and decided to go nuclear. If my memory is correct, it took longer then I thought it would to kill the weeds and other misc crap.

Can you do another round tomorrow to help speed the process?

 

Getting slightly worried about the speed of kill currently going on. Current lawn is barely dinged by the gly as of now, almost 72 hours in. Rate on gly was on target and ams was in tank. Gly had surfactant already in. If this doesn't speed up I don't think I will have any other option than to go tttf.

I know most people feel the need to have the appearance of the lawn being totally dead first. When I did my one gly-Reno, that's what I did, too. But just thinking about this, assuming it will eventually die, and having faith in the process, do you absolutely feel the need to have it be totally brown before dropping the seed (logistical challenges of that notwithstanding, of course...e.g. it may be impossible to seed into a thick lawn and have full confidence the seed will contact the soil)? Just thinking outside the box here.

I've heard of one-day renos...spray and seed the next day, or even later that day. Not sure how successful they were, but you'd think even if you followed a similar approach of seeding before full browning (assuming you could work it out logistically/physically), yours would be much more successful and less likely have holdover remaining from the old lawn...especially if you get a second round of gly in before seeding/scalping. Just a thought experiment. Not sure how it'd work in practice.

Also, over the years, how many times have you used gly...and have you ever had it fail? If a failure never occurred after many uses (other than maybe on a resistant plant species), what's the problem in the big scheme of things? Let's define failure as an incomplete kill in this instance (as opposed a slower than ideal kill).

Any thoughts or reactions to these ideas?

 

The issue is the timeframe I am currently working with. Need to put a scalp on and a dethatch and want to make sure I have it dead before doing this to make sure I have not missed. If doing those things before browning I wont know where my skips are. I am much more accurate and confident in my abilities with a 300 gallon boom sprayer than a backpack sprayer.

Believe it or not, I would guess you have used round up on turf more than I have. Roundup is barely used on turf on a golf course unless a renovation is taking place, which doesn't occur often (some places never) and other products are usually used in beddings.

So in the big scheme of things a slow kill is only an issue due to the timeframe I am working with and ensuring that I have a good kill before scalping (no misses and killed to root). If the lawn was mowed at a half inch and I had an spray rig, I would have no issue with spraying gly, dethaching, and slit seeding and second gly within 5 days of the initial gly app.

 

The issue is the timeframe I am currently working with. Need to put a scalp on and a dethatch and want to make sure I have it dead before doing this to make sure I have not missed. If doing those things before browning I wont know where my skips are. I am much more accurate and confident in my abilities with a 300 gallon boom sprayer than a backpack sprayer.

Believe it or not, I would guess you have used round up on turf more than I have. Roundup is barely used on turf on a golf course unless a renovation is taking place, which doesn't occur often (some places never) and other products are usually used in beddings.

So in the big scheme of things a slow kill is only an issue due to the timeframe I am working with and ensuring that I have a good kill before scalping (no misses and killed to root). If the lawn was mowed at a half inch and I had an spray rig, I would have no issue with spraying gly, dethaching, and slit seeding and second gly within 5 days of the initial gly app.

Makes sense.

On a related topic, I'm not sure if you've seen my "lawn science and research journal" where I mostly post links to interesting research. But there is a study that I found interesting and I think I posted there, showing that Tall Fescue is often somewhat tolerant of low rate glyphosate. Same with fine fescue, and to an extent also Perennial Ryegrass. The idea was it might be another tool for killing Poa in Tall Fescue. I haven't tried it myself yet, but plan to next Spring.

What I did notice, was on occasion, when doing Reno spots for Triv, once in a while I'll have a bit of TTTF that somehow makes it past two normal rate apps of gly w/AMS and NIS. Very interesting stuff...

---------------

Edit: That is a good point that dkgg brought up. You're only at 3 days. Even in 80 degree temps, that might be a bit soon to see much happening. I hear you guys are getting some more big heat soon (mid/high 90s?). I bet it'll show quick results after that! Probably still translocating right now...

 

What would be considered standard rate of gly to kill lawn/ 1000sq ft? Second guessing my rate now.

 

Label rate is 7/ksqft in like 3g/ksqft carrier. I use 4oz/1g/M and do multiple applications to catch any missed overlap.

On a properly maintained lawn, I takes like one week for the gly to really show.