If you are going to cut at 3.5" I think it is a very good idea to be overseeding with grasses that will thrive at that height. That is a relatively tall HOC so I would make sure to avoid anything with dwarf type TTTF and I don't think all KBG likes being cut that high.

 

I would say yes for the simple fact that elite cultivars - often found at boutique suppliers - will have 0% seed seed and 0% other crop in the bag. Even if an analysis shows 0.2% weed seed, there are millions of seeds on a bag, so you will be throwing down weeds. Unless of course the Site One 50/50 is weed/crop seed free. However, at that HOC you're going to want to look into a turf type tall fescue if that's where you want to be. I would check out seed superstore.com, plug in your zip code, and go based on their recommendation for the grass type for your zone.

 

I would say yes for the simple fact that elite cultivars - often found at boutique suppliers - will have 0% seed seed and 0% other crop in the bag. Even if an analysis shows 0.2% weed seed, there are millions of seeds on a bag, so you will be throwing down weeds. Unless of course the Site One 50/50 is weed/crop seed free. However, at that HOC you're going to want to look into a turf type tall fescue if that's where you want to be. I would check out seed superstore.com, plug in your zip code, and go based on their recommendation for the grass type for your zone.

The recommended their blend with like 3 kbg types a tttf and rye.

Call me crazy, but do I want tttf in my 50/50.

Im aware of the clumping wide blade fescue that's ugly as sin, so I get nervous around fescue in general.

 

I would say yes for the simple fact that elite cultivars - often found at boutique suppliers - will have 0% seed seed and 0% other crop in the bag. Even if an analysis shows 0.2% weed seed, there are millions of seeds on a bag, so you will be throwing down weeds. Unless of course the Site One 50/50 is weed/crop seed free. However, at that HOC you're going to want to look into a turf type tall fescue if that's where you want to be. I would check out seed superstore.com, plug in your zip code, and go based on their recommendation for the grass type for your zone.

The recommended their blend with like 3 kbg types a tttf and rye.

Call me crazy, but do I want tttf in my 50/50.

Im aware of the clumping wide blade fescue that's ugly as sin, so I get nervous around fescue in general.

If it's the 50/50 I believe you're thinking about (50% rye - 50% KBG), then yea it would be fine. Most of the newer high end cultivars are thinner bladed and don't have the appearance of traditional TTTF. Based on your zone they may be recommending that to combat some summer/heat stress and it will also do better at the higher HOC. However, if you're happy with the 50/50 then maybe just look at adding in a high end blend of KBG and rye. If you're planning on going lower with your cut then both are a good option. But with the TTTF in the SSS blend I think you'd be okay at around 2" HOC. I would just read about the different cultivars and how each perform and what areas they excel in.

 

In the summer heat I go 3-3.5, but spring and fall 2-2.5" is usually my spot so maybe I do just go with a 50/50, or 70/30 I saw with one of the other suppliers

 

... Even if an analysis shows 0.2% weed seed, there are millions of seeds on a bag, so you will be throwing down weeds. ...

^^^ this, This, THIS! ^^^

It only took me 3 years to realize how bad friends and I've been shooting ourselves in the foot, not paying up front for 0.000% weed or "other" seed. And to see I was spending WAY more on herbicides and Pre-emergents than I was settling for even 0.001 weed seed content.

Best o' Success, whichever you decide to buy! :thumbup:

 

In the summer heat I go 3-3.5, but spring and fall 2-2.5" is usually my spot so maybe I do just go with a 50/50, or 70/30 I saw with one of the other suppliers

Ultimately, use your eyes. If you like the way the 50/50 blend looks, how it cuts, how it does under stress, that's all that matters. If your eyes are telling you that it's working, stick with it! Having weed seeds in the mix can happen, but they're easy enough to deal with once they germinate. Then the following season just get on a pre-emergent program and you're all set.

 

I think I'm just good try some mid grade see. Midnight is a bit rich for my blood, but I tell myself a good premium seed will help elevate a grass that tiny bit

 

anyone ever get the sunny mix from preferred seed?

What is "improved" KBG and Rye?

 

Yes, getting premium seed is worth it.

Weed content aside - you can use cheap or expensive fertilizer, you can water more or less, you can use pesticides if you choose....but, once that grass has germinated you can't change the genetics without a full renovation.

 

I like my yard to look like sod, so I use the seed sod farms use.

 

Even modern compact KBG will do fine at 3.5 inches. Personally, I think it prefers 2-2.5, but especially in the summer 3-3.5 is fine. It is 100% worth it to pay for good seed. Once grass is established, you are stuck with it unless you kill it off which is a lot of work.

 

Even modern compact KBG will do fine at 3.5 inches. Personally, I think it prefers 2-2.5, but especially in the summer 3-3.5 is fine. It is 100% worth it to pay for good seed. Once grass is established, you are stuck with it unless you kill it off which is a lot of work.

tons of work. it seems easy when you start spraying and killing, but then the real work begins if you plan to cut it out, etc.

 

Buying premium seed to 100% worth it. No reason to save money upfront then have to invest more money to get good performance.

 

Even modern compact KBG will do fine at 3.5 inches.

^ This ^

Just because KBG can tolerate low mowing doesn't mean that it prefers being cut low. I believe this is basically true for all varieties of KBG. The growth habit will be different at different mowing heights, but the grass still grows fastest and is generally "healthiest" at high mowing heights. On seed farms (growing the grass for seed) the grass is allowed to get over a foot tall and indeed isn't mowed at all until seed harvest.

The same goes for shade-tolerant KBG, such as Bewitched. Even though it tolerates growing in the shade, it definitely prefers full sun if it can get it. I have Bewitched in both shady and sunny areas. The Bewitched tolerates the shade and looks decent from a distance in those areas, but the density and rate of growth are only a shadow of what the Bewitched is in the sunny areas -- far better in the sun, but tolerates the shade very well compared to other grasses.

But, back to the original topic... Yes, premium seed is definitely worth some extra $, both due to the better genetics (better color, better disease resistance, etc.) and also fewer weed seeds, particularly of ones that are very difficult to eliminate from your lawn, such as Poa trivialis which actually isn't listed as "weed seeds" on the label, but would be listed as "other crop" (which I find really frustrating, but such is the way it is...)

 

As another example, my front lawn is a 50/50 blend of Bewitched KBG and Prosperity KBG. It currently looks great, despite the hot, dry weather of July and August.

The grass on the woods side of our driveway, though, which receives exactly the same care as the front lawn, and was renovated in 2013 with a good "northern mix," only looks good. That northern mix section of lawn still looks better than every other lawn in our neighborhood, but it is definitely a notch below the Bewitched/Prosperity KBG blend. It's enough worse that I just sprayed that section with glyphosate five days ago, and new Bewitched/Prosperity KBG seed is going down within the next five days, Lord willing.

(BTW, I'm in New Hampshire, so "hot and dry" here is nothing like it would be in most of the Midwest, but from what I've read here, the case holds in those places, too.)

 

Yes, getting premium seed is worth it.

Weed content aside - you can use cheap or expensive fertilizer, you can water more or less, you can use pesticides if you choose....but, once that grass has germinated you can't change the genetics without a full renovation.

With this in mind, is there any benefit to overseed an established area with better premium seed? Or at that point, just seed with what is already there? Grass is in decent shape, my thought process would be that some of the more premium darker seed varieties would add a bit of color to the lawn. While it wont out compete the existing lawn, would it blend into it and improve the look?

 

With this in mind, is there any benefit to overseed an established area with better premium seed? Or at that point, just seed with what is already there? Grass is in decent shape, my thought process would be that some of the more premium darker seed varieties would add a bit of color to the lawn. While it wont out compete the existing lawn, would it blend into it and improve the look?

A few thoughts on the above:

• I have never had good success with overseeding KBG into an established lawn. The new KBG has so little energy in the tiny seeds, that the grass can only get about 1" tall before growth stalls and requires sunlight for energy and further growth waits for sufficient root development to get going again ("sprout and pout"). This is not true for perennial ryegrass or tall fescue, which have much larger seeds, and can grow to a height sufficient to start to compete with the existing grass. So, if you're overseeding KBG, I think you'll not get much of the new grass. Overseeding PRG or TTTF is generally successful.
• Seeding a darker grass into an existing lawn leads to a mixed variety of colors, which will generally be splotchy. Most people finds that it looks worse than it did before.
• If you have "grass in decent shape" with your current lawn, then the first step to get it to look better is to "up the game" on taking care of it -- mowing habits, watering, fertilization, etc. If you've already done that, and it still looks to you that it is only "in decent shape" then to go to the next level, you'll need to kill the existing grass and replace all the grass with a variety that has better genetics. Overseeding a better grass won't give you the results you seek. Those of us that have been on these forums for a while have heard of it happening dozens and dozens of times (if not hundreds...)

 

With this in mind, is there any benefit to overseed an established area with better premium seed? Or at that point, just seed with what is already there? Grass is in decent shape, my thought process would be that some of the more premium darker seed varieties would add a bit of color to the lawn. While it wont out compete the existing lawn, would it blend into it and improve the look?

A few thoughts on the above:

• I have never had good success with overseeding KBG into an established lawn. The new KBG has so little energy in the tiny seeds, that the grass can only get about 1" tall before growth stalls and requires sunlight for energy and further growth waits for sufficient root development to get going again ("sprout and pout"). This is not true for perennial ryegrass or tall fescue, which have much larger seeds, and can grow to a height sufficient to start to compete with the existing grass. So, if you're overseeding KBG, I think you'll not get much of the new grass. Overseeding PRG or TTTF is generally successful.
• Seeding a darker grass into an existing lawn leads to a mixed variety of colors, which will generally be splotchy. Most people finds that it looks worse than it did before.
• If you have "grass in decent shape" with your current lawn, then the first step to get it to look better is to "up the game" on taking care of it -- mowing habits, watering, fertilization, etc. If you've already done that, and it still looks to you that it is only "in decent shape" then to go to the next level, you'll need to kill the existing grass and replace all the grass with a variety that has better genetics. Overseeding a better grass won't give you the results you seek. Those of us that have been on these forums for a while have heard of it happening dozens and dozens of times (if not hundreds...)

OK, the reality is, the lawn is good when it wants to be. It has its moments if you will. (08/15)



With that said, when it wants to feel ill, it looks ill. After the photo on the 15th, so the 16th, I noticed some fungus making things look fugly. I actually got some PPZ down a few days before, so I hopefully am just waiting at this point.

last night, I mowed it down a bit to cut some fungus out, bagging the clippings etc.



Keep in mind I had the sun for one and none for the other, but it just looks blah all of a sudden. So I threw some fert down and am watering at the moment so hopefully it pops back up.

As for my thoughts on over seeding, I guess I technically dont need it, just thought it would add darker more efficient grass to what is there, but after your sprout and pout comment I will avoid the idea.

I had planned to mow down to 1-1/4", add PGR, but it seems it is not worth it. I will instead focus on the areas I have crap grass, bent, nimblewill, poa t, kill them and re-seed with the same 50/50 from siteone. Based on the comments, that seems to make the most sense for me at this point.

Even the area in the back that I need to newly seed around the patio we put in, randomly having a single large section of something premium and dark does not seem to make a ton of sense. Although maybe it is a decent opportunity to try some tttf. I always thought rbg/rye, but tttf get a lot of talk on here too. Its the back yard so I am more open to playing. Or, I just do the 50/50 and stop over thinking it

 

Even modern compact KBG will do fine at 3.5 inches.

^ This ^

Just because KBG can tolerate low mowing doesn't mean that it prefers being cut low. I believe this is basically true for all varieties of KBG. The growth habit will be different at different mowing heights, but the grass still grows fastest and is generally "healthiest" at high mowing heights. On seed farms (growing the grass for seed) the grass is allowed to get over a foot tall and indeed isn't mowed at all until seed harvest.

I believe that someone posted a study in another thread that showed much greater disease resistance when an elite, low mow KBG cultivator was cut at 3" versus 1.5".

 

Even modern compact KBG will do fine at 3.5 inches.

^ This ^

Just because KBG can tolerate low mowing doesn't mean that it prefers being cut low. I believe this is basically true for all varieties of KBG. The growth habit will be different at different mowing heights, but the grass still grows fastest and is generally "healthiest" at high mowing heights. On seed farms (growing the grass for seed) the grass is allowed to get over a foot tall and indeed isn't mowed at all until seed harvest.

I believe that someone posted a study in another thread that showed much greater disease resistance when an elite, low mow KBG cultivator was cut at 3" versus 1.5".

That's most interesting as I do get hit with disease once a season usually, but my kbg is not elite

 

With this in mind, is there any benefit to overseed an established area with better premium seed? Or at that point, just seed with what is already there? Grass is in decent shape, my thought process would be that some of the more premium darker seed varieties would add a bit of color to the lawn. While it wont out compete the existing lawn, would it blend into it and improve the look?

A few thoughts on the above:

• I have never had good success with overseeding KBG into an established lawn. The new KBG has so little energy in the tiny seeds, that the grass can only get about 1" tall before growth stalls and requires sunlight for energy and further growth waits for sufficient root development to get going again ("sprout and pout"). This is not true for perennial ryegrass or tall fescue, which have much larger seeds, and can grow to a height sufficient to start to compete with the existing grass. So, if you're overseeding KBG, I think you'll not get much of the new grass. Overseeding PRG or TTTF is generally successful.
• Seeding a darker grass into an existing lawn leads to a mixed variety of colors, which will generally be splotchy. Most people finds that it looks worse than it did before.
• If you have "grass in decent shape" with your current lawn, then the first step to get it to look better is to "up the game" on taking care of it -- mowing habits, watering, fertilization, etc. If you've already done that, and it still looks to you that it is only "in decent shape" then to go to the next level, you'll need to kill the existing grass and replace all the grass with a variety that has better genetics. Overseeding a better grass won't give you the results you seek. Those of us that have been on these forums for a while have heard of it happening dozens and dozens of times (if not hundreds...)

One interesting question. What if I abandoned kbg and only over seeded rye grass? I believe I have read that the rye will simply out compete the existing kbg? Is that accurate or do I have it reversed? Or would that be a stupid idea anyway?

 

A few thoughts ...

• I have never had good success with overseeding KBG into an established lawn. The new KBG has so little energy in the tiny seeds, that the grass can only get about 1" tall before growth stalls and requires sunlight for energy and further growth waits for sufficient root development to get going again ("sprout and pout"). This is not true for perennial ryegrass or tall fescue, which have much larger seeds, and can grow to a height sufficient to start to compete with the existing grass. So,

One interesting question. What if I abandoned kbg and only over seeded rye grass? I believe I have read that the rye will simply out compete the existing kbg? Is that accurate or do I have it reversed? Or would that be a stupid idea anyway?

Overseeding perennial ryegrass (PRG) is a common practice and can give excellent results. With some recent varieties of PRG being very dark, and the ability to go from new seed to "practically established" in less than a month, some sports fields are now starting to be exclusively PRG.

My only caution with overseeding PRG into KBG is that there weren't be any going back if you don't like the results, apart from doing a subsequent renovation. So it's important you're aware of some of the potential downsides of PRG, before you are committed to keeping it for a while.

My suggestion, if you're thinking of doing this would be to try it on a small section for a year and see if you like the results. One potential issue with PRG are that it is more prone to winterkill than KBG, so in more northern areas it dies too much during the winter. However, I don't know Cleveland winters well enough to know if it would work in your area.

PRG also doesn't spread at all, so one has to rely on re-seeding to recover from winterkill or die-off from the heat. PRG grows so quickly from seed that this is a viable strategy. However, it also means that one has to choose between being able to re-seed and or being able to apply pre-emergents to prevent annual weeds such as crab grass or Poa annua.

If after exploring more about the option, you're thinking it's something you may want to do, I'd suggest trying it out on a small section of your current lawn this fall (now is about the perfect time to sow PRG) to see how it goes.

 

Does anyone know what cultivars are sold by big box store brands like Scotts?

I have Falcon IV and Arid 3 along with some Midnight for my most serious overseeding on about 30% of my back yard with timers for watering and cutting short, tenacity then top dress with compost, seeding and covering with Peat moss. It will be mostly TTTF Falcon IV. I do wonder what big box stores sell, I suspect they have upgraded cultivars at least a little over the years.

 

I like my yard to look like sod, so I use the seed sod farms use.

Why?

I have no opinion about your preference, however I am trying to learn about why you have the preference to add to my knowledge base.