I am convinced it is 100% quicker to just do a full renovation on any area that has lots of bermuda. And be prepared to then start the Fusilade II if/when the bermuda shows back up. Much less aggravating, quicker results. Knocking it back in the meantime helps it not come back as strong. My backyard has it, but less since I started the Fusilade II two season ago.
It didn't fully die off in my reno from two years ago.

 

I am convinced it is 100% quicker to just do a full renovation on any area that has lots of bermuda. And be prepared to then start the Fusilade II if/when the bermuda shows back up. Much less aggravating, quicker results. Knocking it back in the meantime helps it not come back as strong. My backyard has it, but less since I started the Fusilade II two season ago.
It didn't fully die off in my reno from two years ago.

That is why my plan for the front yard is to renovate. The back yard will continue with what I started last summer with the Pylex with Fusilade in spring and Pylex late summer at least this year then switching to fusilade only. I will have Fusilade on hand forever for everything including the renovation areas because I know keeping it under control is just not going to happen without a regular schedule with the Fusilade.

Funny thing is that I thought a renovation would be more work and money than going the "save the good stuff route" because I'd need so much chemical to kill everything and so much seed to start from zero. About halfway through I realized the chemicals would have been cheaper and I had to use the full renovation rate of seed anyway! Hah. Live and learn.

I'll have both approaches going side by side for the foreseeable future so anyone curious can follow along and see how both go.

 

I am Central VA and have removed (and am still in progress in some areas) common bermudagrass.
1 area did get Glyphosate, Triclopyr, and Fusilade. It took 2 to 3 applications to kill it entirely. The first app got most of it but could regrow in time from underground roots. The second app truly killed it, but the third app was the insurance. This was done with bare soil, where the rhizomes were exposed during treatment.

I used Fusilade (w/o Triclopyr) last year for areas that did not undergo a complete renovation, but I will not do it again this year. It worked against Bermudagrass but damaged other grasses (TTTF/KBG).

This year, I am using Acclaim Extra (Fenoxaprop) + Triclopyr, followed by Pylex and Triclopyr in late summer/fall.

I have had 90% success in the first year, but I am not risking it returning, hence the 2nd season applications.

If I were doing professional lawn care where I guaranteed the removal, I would say it takes 3 years of these two treatments plus maintaining a dense lawn of TTTF at 3.5" and taller. If you keep your grass jungle tall and thick, you can starve Bermudagrass of sunlight, and it will eventually die without any pesticides.

 

What does the fusillade do

 

I hope I will have some sort of success. My current definition of success for the back yard (treated/overseeded vs renovation) is for the new fescue to survive (treatments and summer) until fall and not leave me with another major overseeding.

I will definitely be keeping it long. I have to raise my zero turn pretty high to avoid uneven cuts due to some dips and mounds in the lawn. On Sunday I used the zero turn for the first time since overseeding and set it at 3.5". My push mower is currently set at 3.25" but the zero turn still went lower. I'll probably move it up to the supposed 4" setting for the rest of the season. That's where I had it last year.

I really want to get a few things done but the weather hasn't been cooperating. I would like to be able to get a couple of 0.25N applications down before I have to stop so I'm not feeding the Bermuda and I need to get a couple insect treatments down but instead of "nice" rain we keep getting 2-4" forecasts which is the forecast for tonight and tomorrow. I'm really hoping to get some stuff done this week with some rain coming mid week.

Sitting on my deck looking at the beauty and praying I don't mess it up.

Here's August 30 of last year. (Pylex was started August 5)

 

Any time you are blanket spraying herbicides at rates to kill another grass, you should expect to over-seed in the fall as there will always be some weakened grass or collateral damage.

 

I definitely expect and plan to overseed this fall. But last fall I had enough bare ground that it was almost a renovation in some areas. Those areas are now filled with beautiful new fescue. I plan to overseed with a more "normal" overseed rate this year like 5lbs/k vs last fall when I used 10lbs/k.

If my lawn looks the same at the end of this summer as it did last year at that time I will be curled up in a fetal position somewhere.

Here's what that area at the bottom of the deck looked like at seed time last fall. My main concern, using this section as an example, is that at some point last spring this area did have some Fescue. I had overseeded the fall before. (with no herbicides, just an overseed) and by the time I was ready to seed last fall it was this...

I just can't handle thinking it could be this bad again. The circumstances I have now are definitely different but I just have this sort of trauma lurking and it really drags me down sometimes.

This year I'll have irrigation. The well goes in Monday (as long as they don't cancel again) and I'll at least have an above ground system of sorts to start with. I need this Fescue as happy as possible when Pylex time rolls around. I know the more stressed it is, the more damaged it will get.

Sometimes (too many times) all of this worry takes away from my ability to enjoy what I've accomplished so far. I'm just so worried I'm going to mess up. "It's only grass." I try to tell myself but it's been a lot of time, a lot of money and a lot of work so it's more than that.

Anyway... I'm always happy to see what other people are doing and anytime someone has done something and had success it makes me feel a little better about my chances.

I'm actually looking forward to the renovation project in the front. The goal is to kill it all. Save nothing! When it turns brown.. It's good! lol

 

i put pylex and turflon in a 1/2 gal spray bottle and just hit it whenever i see it during the growing season. it kills the fescue but oh well

 

@PlanetBeen - I tried this last year. It works - because it slowed grass growth (TTTF and Bermudagrass) for a month. KBG that was sprayed eventually died; if it was strong and had energy for growth, it could recover, but hey, it's not on the label.

Note: I did NOT use triclopyr as a safener.

I do not recommend Fluazifop/Fusilade on non-renovations because it can cause significant damage if the application rate is even slightly overapplied. This is the same solo ingredient used in grass-only killer products like Grass-Be-Gon. While expensive, Acclaim Extra (fenoxaprop) + Turflon (triclopyr) in the Spring/Summer, followed by Pylex (topramezone) and Turflon (triclopyr) in the late summer/early fall, along with seeding in the fall and letting the grass grow tall will remove 90+% of bermudagrass in the first year. Do this again in the 2nd year and it should be gone. If you live in an area where Winter does not get the ground cold enough, you might need a third year.

 

I am with you. My neighboor has serious bermuda issue, and so do I. I am planning to round up the entire lawn, and put sod in this fall. I will get my round up next week. So I still have time for at least 2 applications before putting the sod. I am in Fairfax VA.

 

I am renovating a 4k section of the front yard. (the backyard will still be getting the Pylex applications starting in August.)

I started the renovation about 4 weeks ago. Grass is harder to kill than I thought. I've done 2 applications of "Soul Stealer" (death mix for bermuda and other hard to kill grasses) so far and there is still green out there. I'm glad I started early!

 

To figure out the roundup for a smaller area you'd have to do the math...

How big is your yard? It's going to be hard to do with a 1 gallon sprayer unless it's pretty small. Usually it's x amount of chemical + 1 gallon of water per 1k sqft.

You should probably read the renovation guide in the cool season section.

You should try to get a hold of actual glyphosate not just a bottle of "roundup". Most bottles of roundup are now other mixes of ingredients. (because of the drama / lawsuits around glyphosate) Maybe that's good enough? Maybe not. I'm not the right person to ask.

I got my glyphosate at Tractor Supply.

Here's the renovation guide link.

https://www.thelawnforum.com/threads/renovation-guide-cool-season.16808/#replies

Maybe one of the experts will chime in too...

 

This is only for my front yard, I measured 3.8k sfq. I purchased the Round Up Pro concentrate. Will check the post out, thanks!

 

If you are doing a full renovation with sod, add fusilade to the glyphosate for better control of Bermuda grass.

 

Yep good point, since I won’t worry about damaging good grass anymore!

 

I did exactly what you did last year and am planning on doing it the same this year. It didn’t totally kill all the Bermuda but definitely put a hurt on it. Freaked me out pretty bad after the 3rd app with the triclopyr. I thought I just torched my entire lawn, but it came back looking great in the spring even in the areas that I didn’t overseed. Fortunately I only have 3k sqft of lawn so that little $400 bottle will last a long time.

 

If you have so much direct sunlight and it seems that warm-season grasses are forever invading then why not look into a warm-season lawn? Some hybrid Bermuda grasses will work well in your climate not to mention hybrid zoysia grasses. A few months of a dormant warm-season lawn sure beats several months of fighting it with harsh chemicals and annual renovations.

 

I am in a small section of my yard that I used impact (same as pylex IIRC) on this year. Prior years just used round up on the the stuff that I saw but that wasn't enough to kill it. Even though the shit I could see died it seems to have come back even worse this year so hoping impact will suffice. My third app will be right around the time to re-seed so I figure I can always just kill that entire area and re-seed entirely. I have fusilade as well but have yet to try it.

 

If it is the same as Pylex you could combine it with Triclopyr Ester and MSO. Leave the Triclopyr out of the last application if you want to seed right away. Triclopyr has a 3 week wait before you can seed.

 

Today I applied glyphosate and Fusilade II, for about 2.7k sqft I also added turf mark, so my lawn now looks so green😃 Even bare spots are green.

 

Ok so I dug some of this shit up to learn exactly what I am dealing with. See for yourself how long this fuckers are. Easily over a foot long of horizontal root growth

 

I read somewhere it can grow even 4 feet deep, and can easily crawl across 3 feet wide walkway. The evil grass.

 

I go after my isolated spots with a combination of glove in glove with glyphosate, and spraying a tank mix of triclopyr and Tenacity. Seems to keep it beat back in my fescue.

 

It's horrible evil stuff. I did my first of my 3 Pylex applications yesterday. Hopefully it hurts the Bermuda and not the Fescue.

 

I did Pylex last year, 3 treatments. It hurt the bermuda for sure. It looked dead after the 3rd treatment. However, this summer it came back. Not as much, I would say maybe 50% kill rate. Needs to be done for multiple years. I have KBG and it beat up my Tall Fescue mixed in, but not too badly. It recovered slower than the KBG expanded in the fall.

 

Pylex and triclopyr will work if applied with an mso on schedule as directed. For faster removal (less years), you need to do triclopyr monthly when Bermuda greens up. If you add something like acclaim extra, you can speed up the process even more. If you in an area where winters don’t get the ground temps to below 32 degrees f, you will have at least 2-3 years of this. You should keep newly seeded grass tall (>3inch). The idea with these herbicides is that Bermuda can have a lot of stored energy to regrow. The herbicides and tall grass deny sunlight/energy production so it keeps trying to grow until it starves to death or can’t handle environmental stress.

even with non selective herbicides, I don’t think anything claims to remove Bermudagrass for sure in just 1 year.

 

I am so looking forward to starving Bermudagrass to death. I'm starting my second year of Pylex.

I didn't know about using Triclopyr monthly. I feel like I've seen a few mentions of it recently. Would that be the same Triclopyr 4 (Triclopyr Ester) during the summer? Would you also use MSO so it would be the same as the Pylex applications but minus the Pylex?

How does heat factor into using Triclopyr? I would be afraid of damaging the Fescue by spraying through the heat of summer.

Is that maybe not as much of an issue with irrigation?

I'm obviously past that for this year but I want to be prepared for next year. Especially since I'm doing a renovation out front and as hard as I'm working and as much time as I'm spending, I can't imagine I'm going to conquer the Bermuda. Even after 3 applications of Soul Stealer.

 

Seems like everyone is getting bermuda in their TTTF, but does anyone have it in KBG? Seems like KBG might not be as susceptible but since the heat/drought weakened a few areas I have bermuda invading for the first time ever. So far I’ve sprayed the BioAdvanced. Hoping this fall I can get the KBG reestablished to outcompete the bermuda next year. I’ve got some Ornamec on hand too. Any other suggestions for tackling it in KBG?

 

Ornamec is fluazifop and will probably kill your KBG very easily. If you use a low enough rate it may survive to regrow 4-8 weeks later but at that rate you probably aren’t hurting the Bermudagrass enough. For cool season, acclaim or pylex mixed with either combined with triclopyr is the way to go.

 

Yes, my TTTF is a mix of TTTF and KBG. Mine was originally brought over by shared landscaping.

 

I did 2 applications of impact with mso and then dug it all up because I am impatient as hell. But in doing so you can see what was left of the stuff that I hit 2 times, not much green above ground growth so but whether that is due to hitting with impact or just how this stuff grows up (randomly)?

 

It depends on the health and age of the bermudagrass. This grass stores lots of energy in underground parts, so even if you kill off everything above ground, it is possible for it to grow back with the stored energy (probably in another season). This is why Pylex/Impact works well over time. It will let it grow and try to spend that energy making leaves, but the photosynthesis is blocked. This means no more replenishing or storing energy to spread. Eventually, it will starve to death or be weak to the point herbicides can kill it.

 

I am one week past the first Fusilade II application of the season. It is starting to show damage. I need to do 3 applications per season, this is my 3rd year applying it, need to do a spring app. It makes a difference if I stay on top of it. This is just to keep it weakened when I do a full renovation in a year or two for the backyard.

 

You are brave! I've tried this, and while my fescue did turn out stunted for a month and looked crappy, it survived. Unfortunately, I have a mix of KBG which pretty much all died in a month. I hated the look of the fescue during this time... granted I didn't use Triclopyr in my tests, but I figured it wasn't worth it.

 

Triclopyr should be 21 days wait not a month. Maybe double check the label for whichever one you have? The Pylex is 21-28 days between applications and the thread I followed everyone seemed to be doing the 21. That would get you a little more time.

I'm curious about secured 2k's input on that though!

My schedule is Pylex/Triclopyr/MSO #1 (8/12)+ 3 weeks then Pylex/Triclopyr/MSO #2 (9/2 tentative) + 3 weeks then Pylex/MSO only and seed down same day

 

Triclopyr should be 21 days wait not a month. Maybe double check the label for whichever one you have? The Pylex is 21-28 days between applications and the thread I followed everyone seemed to be doing the 21. That would get you a little more time.

I'm curious about secured 2k's input on that though!

My schedule is Pylex/Triclopyr/MSO #1 (8/12)+ 3 weeks then Pylex/Triclopyr/MSO #2 (9/2 tentative) + 3 weeks then Pylex/MSO only and seed down same day

Triclopyr is a 4 week re-apply interval. The time for seeding is 3 weeks since last application.

Pylex/MSO on healthy Bermudagrass seems to only last 2 weeks. I think the 3 week was to allow us to spread the time out without using too much product.
My test that shows this is spraying 1.5oz/a rate on bermudagrass withjout tricloypr. It turned bleach white in 5 days and stayed that way for about 2 weeks. By 2+ weeks (but less than 3) it was growing back and turning green again. Perhaps the growth regulation by adding Tricloypr could have extended this to 3 weeks?
It's not a perfect instant kill, but it does have an impact on the Bermudagrass and it does work (over time, when applied at the right time).

 

@PlanetBeen—I'm in Central VA, which is about two hours away. Most of the experiences you wrote about matched what happened to me when I did the same things in the past, especially the Fusilade application. It did hurt Bermuda, though.

You were correct in minimizing the fertilizer application in the Spring. The most important time for cool-season grass is in the fall; two applications during this time could be enough. The first application is for growth in the fall, and the second is for storage over winter to green up in the Spring.

Most home lawns do not need fungicides. Proper mowing and well-drained (and aerated) soil without excessive fertilizer will keep most diseases in check. Healthy grass will resist disease on its own (natural defenses). Adding fungicides is a little extra help if Mother Nature still creates an environment that could cause a bad outbreak on a susceptible cultivar. Consider it an insurance policy against nature's attempt to ruin your lawn.

The residential fungicide group list is fairly short for the affordable stuff. We are generally allowed to use Groups 1, 3, 7($$$), and 11.
I save any group 3s for when I want some growth regulation. Otherwise, I use a premium 7/11 on the holiday schedule (right before Memorial Day, Independence Day, and Labor Day) with groups 1 and 3 in between or as needed. A 3/11 combo (Headway/Pillar) also covers a broad spectrum and works well. Remember that using some fungicides could increase the chance of fungus disease in the future. It becomes an additional maintenance task/cost.

Fungicide is not required for herbicide treatments and seeding, but it is known to help any time you have weakened/stressed grass or young seedlings that could be killed off by disease. Coated seeds usually include a fungicide (Group 4 Mefenoxam). Propiconazole and probably others have label directions for use when seeding to enhance germination performance.

I would not worry about a foliar application at this time. You are already seeing growth, and we are around the 80-degree soil temperature range. My statement about a foliar feed is only if you had starving or hardened off grass/weeds, as that little boost would help it be stronger before the application. It isn't just about growth but enhancing the plant's resistance to heat, cold, drought, and disease stress (via N and K). In some herbicide applications, it is recommended to water and fertilize before or with the application to encourage more active plant function so the herbicide can be absorbed and translocated better (vs a dormant plant).

If your fescue were more damaged/stunted, a small amount of foliar fertilizer (with a close 2:1 ratio of N to K) could help it recover. I personally only do .1 lbs N for foliar. Others here and online say you could go as high as .2lbs (at this rate or higher, you risk N tip burn or wasting what can't be absorbed). Otherwise, save your fertilizer application (to soil) for about two weeks after germination from over-seeding. If you want even more turf quality, feel free to still foliar feed in those small amounts (spoon feeding) which works well.

 

@PlanetBeen—I'm in Central VA, which is about two hours away. Most of the experiences you wrote about matched what happened to me when I did the same things in the past, especially the Fusilade application. It did hurt Bermuda, though.

You were correct in minimizing the fertilizer application in the Spring. The most important time for cool-season grass is in the fall; two applications during this time could be enough. The first application is for growth in the fall, and the second is for storage over winter to green up in the Spring.

Most home lawns do not need fungicides. Proper mowing and well-drained (and aerated) soil without excessive fertilizer will keep most diseases in check. Healthy grass will resist disease on its own (natural defenses). Adding fungicides is a little extra help if Mother Nature still creates an environment that could cause a bad outbreak on a susceptible cultivar. Consider it an insurance policy against nature's attempt to ruin your lawn.

The residential fungicide group list is fairly short for the affordable stuff. We are generally allowed to use Groups 1, 3, 7($$$), and 11.
I save any group 3s for when I want some growth regulation. Otherwise, I use a premium 7/11 on the holiday schedule (right before Memorial Day, Independence Day, and Labor Day) with groups 1 and 3 in between or as needed. A 3/11 combo (Headway/Pillar) also covers a broad spectrum and works well. Remember that using some fungicides could increase the chance of fungus disease in the future. It becomes an additional maintenance task/cost.

Fungicide is not required for herbicide treatments and seeding, but it is known to help any time you have weakened/stressed grass or young seedlings that could be killed off by disease. Coated seeds usually include a fungicide (Group 4 Mefenoxam). Propiconazole and probably others have label directions for use when seeding to enhanmination performance.

I would not worry about a foliar application at this time. You are already seeing growth, and we are around the 80-degree soil temperature range. My statement about a foliar feed is only if you had starving or hardened off grass/weeds, as that little boost would help it be stronger before the application. It isn't just about growth but enhancing the plant's resistance to heat, cold, drought, and disease stress (via N and K). In some herbicide applications, it is recommended to water and fertilize before or with the application to encourage more active plant function so the herbicide can be absorbed and translocated better (vs a dormant plant).

If your fescue were more damaged/stunted, a small amount of foliar fertilizer (with a close 2:1 ratio of N to K) could help it recover. I personally only do .1 lbs N for foliar. Others here and online say you could go as high as .2lbs (at this rate or higher, you risk N tip burn or wasting what can't be absorbed). Otherwise, save your fertilizer application (to soil) for about two weeks after germination from over-seeding. If you want even more turf quality, feel free to still foliar feed in those small amounts (spoon feeding) which works well.

I definitely had no plans for regular fungicide applications and I hope I won't "need" them forever. I felt like it seemed good to add a little protection since the Pylex treatment might be rough on the Fescue especially if the weather doesn't cooperate. (excessive heat or drought) Thankfully it's been pretty decent here since we got past the weird no rain June.

I had read about fungicide and didn't really want anything to do with yet another "program" to keep track of and I didn't really feel like it would ever be something I'd be having to deal with.

I'm OK with using it for some special protection but I'll be glad to not be on a permanent fungicide rotation.

I'm out of time for posting tonight. I updated my main journal with pictures from today which is 1 week post Pylex #1.

I don't suppose I should post the same pictures everywhere so I'll just put a link here.

I posted 7 closeup type pictures in this post :

https://www.thelawnforum.com/posts/644224/

and a few overview pictures in the post after it.

Overall I'm "happy" that the Fescue seems to be mostly ok but scared to death that it's just going to slowly die off.

I hate not knowing. I also hate that I can't really do anything about it if it starts to go that way.

I'll just keep being nervous and hoping it's going to be ok.

BTW my sister lives in the Richmond area. (Glen Allen area)