[jsams22]

@CarolinaCuttin I am in Greenville. My first stab with an UltraDwarf Bermuda did not go as planned and will chalk it up as a learning opportunity. I dont think I had enough sand in my rootmix and sunlight for the bermuda to thrive and spread in on all sides.

I am moving the green and bringing in 6 tons of sand for my small green. It will be closer to 500sqft and looking to have a sand rootmix of 4-6 inches. I just ordered a 1lb bag of 777 Bentgrass. It was between the 007 and 777 and ultimately went with the 777. I am hoping to get the seed in the ground before the last week of September.

I am more worried about fungus problems with the Bent. Which fungicide were you going with? And would you have any interest in splitting or selling off some?

Thanks for your inspiration.

 

[fredjmillard]

@CarolinaCuttin for sure that would be appreciated. I have read alot of other threads on putting greens and yours was by far the most helpful and detailed.

 

[CarolinaCuttin]

@CarolinaCuttin I am in Greenville. My first stab with an UltraDwarf Bermuda did not go as planned and will chalk it up as a learning opportunity. I dont think I had enough sand in my rootmix and sunlight for the bermuda to thrive and spread in on all sides.

I am moving the green and bringing in 6 tons of sand for my small green. It will be closer to 500sqft and looking to have a sand rootmix of 4-6 inches. I just ordered a 1lb bag of 777 Bentgrass. It was between the 007 and 777 and ultimately went with the 777. I am hoping to get the seed in the ground before the last week of September.

I am more worried about fungus problems with the Bent. Which fungicide were you going with? And would you have any interest in splitting or selling off some?

Thanks for your inspiration.

I have seen some great native soil bermuda greens but never great shaded bermuda greens! Bentgrass will tolerate slightly more shade (afternoon shade is better than morning shade) but it's still not very shade tolerant. Even with a sand based system I would place a lot of emphasis on the surface drainage of the green. When you get those quick shots of heavy rain you need to be able to move sheeting water off quickly.

Late September/early October is probably the latest you can seed and still get a great surface by April. But the good news is that you probably won't have to worry about much disease activity at that time. Last year all I did for the grow in was one good systemic fungicide (azoxystrobin will work well) in September and one pythium fungicide (mefenoxam) in September. By the time October came it was smooth sailing, and with your seeding date you won't be mowing until probably October 15th so I wouldn't be worried much at all about fungicides. I'm happy to split some mefenoxam (rate is 0.5-1.0 oz/M and I have about 28 oz left) but I am just about out of the other stuff, I will be reordering for next spring.

My two biggest mistakes last year were trying to use an ag grade (huge prill size) urea and burning straight lines in the green in October from not being able to get it to melt down even with a ton of water (you can see this all during the fall grow in) and then becoming afraid of granular products all together and not giving the new plants nearly enough food to mature and grow in by winter. I am going to pre-plant with Milorganite (cheap, safe, and slow release N) @ 0.75 lbs P/M and 1.12 lbs N/M and that will be all the food it gets for the first month of growth. Then I'll make my post-plant fert apps using Country Club MD greens grade 18-3-18 in early October when the threat of disease is almost gone. These particles are as small as sand so there is no threat of burning as long as you knock them down with water into the canopy.

After going through this last year, my new philosophy is the best way to grow it in is by seeding early (late August/early September) and at a lower rate of seeding (1.0 lb seed/M) to keep disease at bay, not pushing at all it until October and then applying 0.5-1.0 lbs N/M every week in order to reach full coverage. Last year where the urea did not burn the grass totally blew up and filled in quicker than I thought would be possible. By seeding August 28th/29th it will allow me to reseed some areas by Sept 15th if a terrible storm washes the seed before it can tack down, but I need all the grass rooted by October 1 so I can go hard with fert all month. I hope this helps, as always any questions you have I'll be happy to answer what I can!

@fredjmillard Awesome, I will do an even more detailed log this year (and hopefully a much better job!) Thanks for following along!

 

[DbShep]

@CarolinaCuttin I am in Greenville. My first stab with an UltraDwarf Bermuda did not go as planned and will chalk it up as a learning opportunity. I dont think I had enough sand in my rootmix and sunlight for the bermuda to thrive and spread in on all sides.

I am moving the green and bringing in 6 tons of sand for my small green. It will be closer to 500sqft and looking to have a sand rootmix of 4-6 inches. I just ordered a 1lb bag of 777 Bentgrass. It was between the 007 and 777 and ultimately went with the 777. I am hoping to get the seed in the ground before the last week of September.

I am more worried about fungus problems with the Bent. Which fungicide were you going with? And would you have any interest in splitting or selling off some?

Thanks for your inspiration.

I have seen some great native soil bermuda greens but never great shaded bermuda greens! Bentgrass will tolerate slightly more shade (afternoon shade is better than morning shade) but it's still not very shade tolerant. Even with a sand based system I would place a lot of emphasis on the surface drainage of the green. When you get those quick shots of heavy rain you need to be able to move sheeting water off quickly.

Late September/early October is probably the latest you can seed and still get a great surface by April. But the good news is that you probably won't have to worry about much disease activity at that time. Last year all I did for the grow in was one good systemic fungicide (azoxystrobin will work well) in September and one pythium fungicide (mefenoxam) in September. By the time October came it was smooth sailing, and with your seeding date you won't be mowing until probably October 15th so I wouldn't be worried much at all about fungicides. I'm happy to split some mefenoxam (rate is 0.5-1.0 oz/M and I have about 28 oz left) but I am just about out of the other stuff, I will be reordering for next spring.

My two biggest mistakes last year were trying to use an ag grade (huge prill size) urea and burning straight lines in the green in October from not being able to get it to melt down even with a ton of water (you can see this all during the fall grow in) and then becoming afraid of granular products all together and not giving the new plants nearly enough food to mature and grow in by winter. I am going to pre-plant with Milorganite (cheap, safe, and slow release N) @ 0.75 lbs P/M and 1.12 lbs N/M and that will be all the food it gets for the first month of growth. Then I'll make my post-plant fert apps using Country Club MD greens grade 18-3-18 in early October when the threat of disease is almost gone. These particles are as small as sand so there is no threat of burning as long as you knock them down with water into the canopy.

After going through this last year, my new philosophy is the best way to grow it in is by seeding early (late August/early September) and at a lower rate of seeding (1.0 lb seed/M) to keep disease at bay, not pushing at all it until October and then applying 0.5-1.0 lbs N/M every week in order to reach full coverage. Last year where the urea did not burn the grass totally blew up and filled in quicker than I thought would be possible. By seeding August 28th/29th it will allow me to reseed some areas by Sept 15th if a terrible storm washes the seed before it can tack down, but I need all the grass rooted by October 1 so I can go hard with fert all month. I hope this helps, as always any questions you have I'll be happy to answer what I can!

@fredjmillard Awesome, I will do an even more detailed log this year (and hopefully a much better job!) Thanks for following along!

Why not melt the granular urea in water and spray? I've had good luck with that on my green.

 

[CarolinaCuttin]

@DbShep Yeah that works great and I've done that a bunch but I was attempting to put 1.25 lbs N/M down, doing that all in one spray is very risky since that salt concentration can burn the leaves in no time. I love sprays as much as anyone but I believe serious N and K applications are needed the first fall to get those tiny plants to pop

 

[jsams22]

@CarolinaCuttin Thanks for the great write up.

I agree with you on the native soil aspect. I tried sprigging Sunday UltraDwarf. I had a 500sq ft circle green and 50% of the green was pretty flat and full sun, the other 50% was slightly graded like a false front and didnt get full until around 1pm in the afternoon. I think a combination of too much slope, water flowing off and eating at the root base, and not enough sun is what led to its demise. I was told/expected a full or almost full grow in within 6-8 weeks, and I'm on week 11 and its not even close.

I am going to expand it on the 50% side that got full sun and that is much flatter.

So far I was using all foliar type applications. I have a 46-0-0 I was putting out ever 4-5 days with a 10-30-20 Ag South water soluble mixed in at a total .4lb N/M rate.
Luckily my local Landscapers supply sells the professional grade Milo so I can get the very small prill version at a great price.

I will look to use the Milo for the starter, then push with the 46-0-0 urea foliar spray at the rates/dates you suggested.

I will go ahead and start a journal also!

 

[CarolinaCuttin]

@jsams22 I think 8 weeks is correct, you should be able to go from nothing to open for play (99% coverage) in 8 weeks if it gets full sun, so I think it has to be the shade. I'm looking forward to watching your grow in too!

 

[GoDawgs]

@CarolinaCuttin definitely share if time allows! Enjoying your journey and documentation.

 

[Benwag]

Absolutely would love to follow along for the second round!

 

[CarolinaCuttin]

@Benwag
@GoDawgs
@jsams22

Definitely getting started early, but tonight I decided to start growing grass when the weather forecast looked good. Last year, whether I would get a big washout was so unpredictable that I've talked myself into starting early. I no longer worry about keeping it alive in the heat, I have the tools to do that, I just need grass that is rooted and growing. After 3 rounds of glyphosate (one blanket app and 2 separate spot sprays about 10 days apart to clean up new weeds)I am ready to seed. I went at the low rate for creeping bentgrass, 1 lb/M of seed. I also spread Milo at 20 lbs/M.

Milo went down first, then I blended up 25 pounds of topdressing sand and 2 pounds of seed and put it in the spreader. It worked out perfectly where I could spread the green center to center in two directions with both Milo and seed.

Rather that placing irrigation off the green and going with two part circles, I tried placing the impact sprinklers on the green and running them as full circles for 11 minutes each, staggered by 19 minutes every 6 hours. They will run at 6/6:30am, 12/12:30pm, 6/6:30pm, and 12/12:30am. This will keep an even level of moisture on top and not add significant water to the soil below 1". I am using an Orbit 2 station timer to handle all the watering for me.

I have experimented with potted bentgrass and had success growing it over the last two weeks with only 2 waterings, one morning and one night, so I am confident this 4x/day schedule is plenty of water to get it growing. The faster it roots, the faster we are safe from washouts! If this seeding takes the first time like I hope it will, we could be looking at a first mow around September 5th.

After the first mow, I will apply a good broad spectrum fungicide (probably Xzemplar) to keep up seedling vigor and clean up any summer pathogens. If I am getting good plant density prior to cooler fall weather, I will apply a pythium material to keep that disease at bay. The fungicide I choose will depend on disease pressure and seedling spacing.

I will not be looking to push the green with much fertilizer until late September/early October when the major threat of disease is gone. There should be enough N and P in the Milo to keep it growing at a slow but steady pace until then.

In a week or two this could all turn out to be a washout and I'll have to start over, but the benefit starting early is I won't run out of warmth to get this thing to 100% coverage by Dec 1 even if it takes 2 or 3 tries. Thanks for following along, I'll keep y'all updated!



Here it is after seed, Milo, and the first shot of irrigation

 

[jsams22]

Great prep work! I found this sprinkler head at Lowes and it worked great for circle shaped greens. Very even distribution.

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Gilmour-Gilmour-174-Adjustable-Whirling-Sprinkler-with-Spike-Base/1003163568

 

[GoDawgs]

Following!

 

[CarolinaCuttin]

It's almost time to start seeing some green. We had some rain come in last night but it didn't appear to be heavy enough to mess up my seeding. More rain on the way but it's got to be very close to sending roots down anyway.

I sprayed a phosphite at a very high rate (9 oz/M) and then lightly watered it in to knock down any Pythium/damping off that might brew. I don't mind the rain just hoping it doesn't come down all at once!

 

[CarolinaCuttin]

Well, after the long wait there is some bad news. Remnants of Fred that came through last night dropped almost an inch of rain in an hour or less. There were piles of Milorganite at the bottom of the green. It wasn't a complete wash, there is Milo still at the top but much less dense as far as coverage. I suppose I should come back with a little bit of liquid fert later this week to make up for it.

Anyway, with the potential washing/uprooting of a lot of my seed, I went ahead and broadcast another 0.5 lbs/M of bentgrass and flipped the irrigation back on after the storms last night. There is seed germinating, but it looks very lackluster and spotty so far. I figured another half pound would likely be needed and the 10 day outlook is fantastic, so it's a great time to do it. Part of me wants to go out with another half pound this weekend but too much seed is a terrible problem to have given how early I started, so no more seed is going down until my originally planned seed dates of August 28/29. I will consider these two seedings as a base for my project and in 10 days I can evaluate how much and exactly where the seed needs to go to get relatively even coverage. If this seed isn't up 10 days, it's either dead or gone.

The bad part about staggered seeding is timing your first mow. You always end up waiting too long or mowing too early since the seed popped at different times. Oh well, there are worse problems to have.

 

[DbShep]

What initial cut height are you aiming for? I wouldn't worry too much about cutting too early, golf courses over-seed greens that are being maintained at playing height around 0.125" with success. I seeded my bentgrass green on May 20th of last year and my initial cut height was 0.625"; I was cutting around 0.156" by the time the snow flew. I had a bunch of small quarter sized spots with very sparse cover, I think a combination of the way the grass germinated and a battle I had with cutworm. Those spots grew into full cover in the spring by the end of May this year. I did several rounds of spot seeding by mixing seed with green mix and peat moss and hand watered them through germination to minimize the chance of damping off. I didn't start to lower my cut height from 0.625" until I had mostly full cover.

 

[CarolinaCuttin]

Well, I'm glad I waited for germination before blanket seeding again, I have great coverage on 80% of the green. I reseeded the top portion again at the full rate since that seed likely washed from the multiple rains we got during establishment. I have adjusted the irrigation to prioritize that area and get it grown in. I am now hoping for a first cut around the middle of September, with a fungicide going down in the next 7 days. If I can get grass growing on the top of the green in the next 2 weeks, this is going to be a breeze compared to last year.



Here is the green, it's definitely on its way! I backed off the irrigation to 2x per day on top (where I need seed to grow) and down to 1x per day on bottom where there is plenty of grass.

@DbShep I will make the first cut when the grass is firmly rooted and at the 2-3 leaf stage. I will cut it at 0.300" to start and then begin cutting 2x per week, dropping it 0.010" after every mow until I'm down to to 0.200", then dropping it down 0.005" after every mow until I'm at 0.150". I will leave it at 0.150" all winter and slowly work my way down to 0.130" by April which is my target height of cut.

 

[DbShep]

Well, I'm glad I waited for germination before blanket seeding again, I have great coverage on 80% of the green. I reseeded the top portion again at the full rate since that seed likely washed from the multiple rains we got during establishment. I have adjusted the irrigation to prioritize that area and get it grown in. I am now hoping for a first cut around the middle of September, with a fungicide going down in the next 7 days. If I can get grass growing on the top of the green in the next 2 weeks, this is going to be a breeze compared to last year.



Here is the green, it's definitely on its way! I backed off the irrigation to 2x per day on top (where I need seed to grow) and down to 1x per day on bottom where there is plenty of grass.

@DbShep I will make the first cut when the grass is firmly rooted and at the 2-3 leaf stage. I will cut it at 0.300" to start and then begin cutting 2x per week, dropping it 0.010" after every mow until I'm down to to 0.200", then dropping it down 0.005" after every mow until I'm at 0.150". I will leave it at 0.150" all winter and slowly work my way down to 0.130" by April which is my target height of cut.

0.130" is a good target height and you can add speed by rolling it with the reel off after you cut it. I had two spots that were sparse, (one small spot washed out every time I seeded it last year, and another spot where my dog peed on the snow in the fall), and I spread a bit of seed in the spring with intentions to get back to them this fall. In the meantime, they have nearly crept in.

 

[CarolinaCuttin]

I haven't had a whole lot to post since lately I have been spot seeding some thinner areas and just running water. I seeded the nursery area (behind and to left of the green) at the same time as the reseeding of the top of the green. Both areas now have tiny seedlings popping up. Here is the green:



I have already mowed one time at 0.300", although I completely skipped the thin spot at the top, I didn't even want the mower on it until those seedlings can mature. I will mow the majority of the green one more time at 0.300" and then begin my HOC lowering program. The thin area will continue to be skipped until I am sure it is rooted enough to not damage the grass, but I will not raise the height for this area, it will just get mowed at whatever height I have worked the green down to. Again I am planning to mow twice a week and drop the height 0.010" every mow until I am at 0.200". At that point I will drop it 0.005" every mow until I hit 0.150" which is where I want it going into the winter.

I do not have a history of damping off on this site, so I didn't apply any fungicides during establishment. Since we still have a few more weeks of hot weather and the density is beginning to rapidly increase as I mow lower and more often, I decided to hit it with a fungicide combo so I wouldn't have to worry about losing all this great progress. Today I sprayed Segway at 0.9 oz/M and Xzemplar at 0.26 oz/M. This will cover me for 14-21 days for dollar spot, brown patch, and pythium blight. Right now I don't anticipate another fungicide application this year, but you never know what we can have thrown at us with hurricanes, heat waves, etc.

All in all I'm extremely pleased with the progress so far, and I'm light years ahead of where I was last year. I will probably push a few areas with some liquid fertilizer as needed to get all the areas of the green to a similar level of maturity. October brings with it virtually perfect bentgrass weather, so it won't be long before I am pushing this grass to turn into a tight knit putting green.

 

[DbShep]

Looks good!

 

[CarolinaCuttin]

Been a while since I have updated this! Lots of good things have happened even during the warmer weather of the last 3 weeks. Before a significant stretch of rain I went ahead and gave everything one more shot of fungicide, Subdue at 1 oz/M and Insignia at 0.7 oz/M. I believe we are now in the clear as far as serious disease issues, I think we are about to hit the nicest bentgrass weather of the year. I also sprayed 20-20-20 at 2 lbs/M before the rain earlier in the week (lightly watered in to avoid burning) to give it a push.

This morning I mowed the green and threw down my first granular application, 0.5 lbs of nitrogen per thousand of 21-7-14. I will not be shy with the nitrogen this fall, I expect to throw down at least 0.5 lbs N/M every week all the way to December 1.

This week I also seeded the approach in front of the green and the tee and tee surrounds. The approach will be the same perennial ryegrass that was on the tee last year, and the tee will be Penncross creeping bentgrass with TTTF rough surrounds.

I have now fully backed off the watering for the majority of the green, it will be only get a full shot of water to the whole thing if I need it to water in a product. I continue to hand water some small areas a few times per week as needed. These areas were touched up with some more seed so it needs a little bit more water as well.

Here is the green after this morning's mow