[gene_stl]

So I am going to try an early dormant slit seeding and be willing for it to be a waste of money if it all dries out and wilts in the summer. Some parts of it where I have bare dirt I will irrigate to make sure it gets through. The rest of it I will seed again in fall.

The big question i have is what seeds to buy and use. I visited my local Site One store and they have a product called Gateway Green TTTF Blend. It is ,tax included about $68 per 50 lb bag and with 50 to 75% coverage which I have they call out 4-6 lb per thousand sqft.

The cultivars are Kingdom , Stetson II , Padre , Reunion. Percentages not given. Blue Tag quality. LESCO 26-82-102

Anybody have any opinions, thoughts , comments

 

[social port]

It sounds like you are well aware that you are taking a big risk with this plan.
I'm not familiar with the cultivars you mention, but Kingdom was included in recent NTEP trials (the others were not). If it were me, I would shop around for a better performing cultivar, especially since you are going to have some things working against you.
I would make sure that the crop percentage is 0.00 (it probably is, but worth a double-check) and also seed lightly. It's not only heat that will bother the grass (doesn't MO get really humid?).

I'll be interested to know what you do and what your efforts produce.

 

[j4c11]

@gene_stl

My thought is, don't do it. There is no advantage to dormant seeding imo. You throw the seed down, and it germinates - at some point. When do you apply fertilizer? When do you apply pre-emergent? When is it safe to use herbicide? When is it safe to walk on? Should you water? When can you mow? These are questions with no answer when you dormant seed, because you give up all control to Mother Nature.

Now, could it work? Sure. But I think you're better off waiting until the weather warms up, seeding, and then you know exactly what's going on.

 

[gene_stl]

I do hear (and even completely believe and agree with), all the warnings. But, I am reminded of a handyman friend of mine, who helped me renovate my first house 40 years ago. He used to say, "Do SOMETHING, even if it's wrong!" That is the situation I find myself in.
The lawn looks so horrible I can't even bring myself to post pictures of it. I am going to hammer it with Tenacity and Tupersan early and Quinchlorac later. I will also spot with broadleaf. I am going to drop some Milorganite and Mole Scram. Maybe some bone meal and blood meal to discourage the moles and the deer. And although the place is really too big to irrigate I will hand water the areas where there is bare dirt, which is a lot. I know it's a calculated risk with poor odds.

If I had been able to fall seed this last fall, it would have been just as bad. We are still listed as drought and for months we were in "severe drought". Any seed put down last fall would have withered. We usually get good rains here in the spring. Almost always. I can't let that water go unused.

It does get pretty humid here but not like say, the Gulf Coast.

There is not much walking on this lawn. Since there is some grass there I would mow it whenever it gets bushy. ( I got a nastygram from the city after I moved in but before I got either of my two mowers delivered , the new Hustler or the old Scott's out of the hospital) Maybe the existing lawn will act as a "nurse grass" though that concept seems mostly discredited. Lesco claims zero weed and crop seed and that all the components did well in NTEP trials. I guess I will look that data up. If I use this Lesco seed I was thinking about five lb per thousand.

Does anyone have any tttf seed mixes or varieties they like and recommend. I have to say that Jonathan Green produces great advertising and even old dogs like myself who should know better can be affected. But their seed is like twice as much as everybody else.

I will report what happens in either case. Wish me luck. I think the real issue is whether I should bite the bullet and install irrigation and then pay $41.00 per 1,000 cubic feet of water. Or spend 10,000 on an irrigation well if that is even possible.

 

[bernstem]

Being from St. Louis, a spring seeding is unlikely to survive the summer unless you irrigate - a lot. I have never had good results with dormant seeding. With either form of spring seeding, you will not be able to use a pre-emergent and in a high weed pressure lawn the weeds will take over. That will result in more weeds this fall that you will need to deal with when you can successfully overseed.

My advice would be to plan on killing your weeds this spring and summer and plan for a fall seeding. Even a fall seeding will almost certainly need supplemental irrigation to do well in St. Louis. Lawn care is a long term project and often the knee jerk, do something approach will not do as well as a carefully organized plan.

Depending on your municipality, you may not be allowed to have an irrigation well.

 

[j4c11]

If you do go for it, I would advise keeping a gallon of propiconazole on hand and spraying every 2 weeks from May all the way until September. That young fescue will get slaughtered by fungus quickly given the amount of frequent watering you will have to do to keep it alive.

 

[Green]

If you do go for it, I would advise keeping a gallon of propiconazole on hand and spraying every 2 weeks from May all the way until September.

He's going to need to rotate fungicide classes at least every few applications if he does that...to prevent resistance.

Gene- You obviously know what you're doing and what the tradeoffs are, so if you're ok with it failing (worst case), give the Spring seeding a try. You can use your own judgment to figure out when it's ready enough to handle a real Pre-M.

My own best Spring seeding worked well. I watered almost every day through the Summer. It worked out great until I accidently killed most of it the following year while trying to kill weedy grasses. Hopefully it's not totally dead...we will see in a few months.

 

[social port]

It worked out great until I accidently killed most of it the following year while trying to kill weedy grasses

@gene_stl , re your irrigation question: You have a very large lot. Between mowing, watering, applying fungicide(s), fertilizer etc, you are going to be very busy. Have you considered beautifying half of your lot rather than the whole property? I know of plenty of people who focus on their front yards only. Confining your target lawn space might go a long way in resolving your watering dilemma.

Also, I don't have any experience using products from the Jonathan Green line, so I can't provide much of a comment. I agree that they do a nice job with their advertising. I looked into their seeds last year. I couldn't find any reviews that were utterly negative but, of course, that really doesn't mean much.

You could always use the seed distributors that many of us forum members use...e.g., Super Seed Store, The Hogan Company. Also, it is a good idea to have a list of some of the top-performing cultivars for you area per NTEP trials if you are going to order a custom blend.

 

[gene_stl]

I appreciate everyone trying to talk me out of making a mistake.

I just spoke with the guy that was analyzing my soil samples. The good news is that it is silty rather than clayey. But not much organic matter and pH about 6. He thinks it was good quality fill dirt put in when there was a major addition to the house in 1997. When I mentioned dormant seeding he too scrunched up his face.

Maybe I'll just throw down Milorganite and strong pre EM and wait till fall. I think I will try the bare spots though. I can keep them moist. Work on running the moles off and aerate.

I did think of partial renovation. But in the front that would look bad. Maybe the back only. I told my wife I would get a croquet lawn for her.

I am going to do further research on cultivars.
I didn't know there were any conazoles for lawn use. There are a large number of them used in human medicine. Usually they are relatively pricey even over the counter stuff.

 

[social port]

Usually they are relatively pricey

The fungicides for lawns aren't cheap either --or, perhaps I should say that the prices don't make me feel good.
I've managed to avoid using them so far, but I don't know how long that will be a sensible option.

 

[LawnNerd]

I understand your desire to do something, even if it's wrong. My step-father used to say the same thing to me! Lol

I'm with all the others here, skip the spring seeding. If you want a good project for this spring and summer work on amending the soil. A good soil will do more to help you in the long run. It'll retain moisture longer, and make for healthier plants which will fight off fungus better. Read up on Humic Acid, and watch thegrassfactor's Youtube videos on Humic. Also, knock down the weeds, and hone your spraying technique.

 

[gene_stl]

I have been watching those videos and I wonder how many members here have tried it. Is all that stuff they say about it true? Even The Lawn Care Nut is gettin on the band wagon. I would be very interested in peoples opinions and experiences on that.

The spring seeding would amount to about a $200 bet. And more or less one weekend of work. On the one hand I am very inclined to listen to everyone here. On the other hand I just printed out a "Lawn and Turf Management" booklet from the university of Missouri extension center. It said winter overseeding isn't a bad idea. I also yesterday sent an email to the county extension agent who teaches the Master Gardener program. Since he is local I will weight his response heavily and will report it here.

 

[g-man]

@gene_stl A spring seeding is possible, but it is a pain. I had to do it after a concrete patio being pour in the backyard. The two main issues are 1) keeping it alive and 2) the weeds.

Here is an article from Purdue around how to do it. http://www.extension.purdue.edu/extmedia/AY/AY-20-W.pdf The article is a bit dated since it talks about siduron instead of Tenacity.

I would use tenacity at seed down, at 30days and then a PreM at ~8week since seed down. This should limit the weeds, but not perfect. I would have a solid plan for watering and a careful eye for fungus (with fungicide at hand). Based on your irrigation comment, it seems that you need to work the watering approach.

To be clear, you are planing on an overseed instead of a reno, correct? A reno involves killing all of your yard with round up and starting from scratch.

Just because it is possible to have a successful spring seeding it doesnt mean you should do it. The probabilities of success are low, the expense is high (watering thru the summer), the time commitment and the loss opportunity to address other issues (soil); are the main reasons why experience tells us to seed in the fall.

 

[gene_stl]

Just because it is possible to have a successful spring seeding it doesnt mean you should do it.

That is the crux of the situation ,right there. I am talking about overseeding an existing, thin and weedy lawn ,not killing it and starting over.

I get the impression from the comments that Tenacity is relatively wimpy. I guess compared to Dithiopyr and Prodiamine.
What about quinclorac (Drive XLR8)? One of the university papers I think the one from Wisconsin says that its pretty easy on seedlings. I guess you don't want a root pruner even after germination.

 

[g-man]

Tenacity is used at seed down. It prevent and kills most weeds, but it allows the grass to germinate (if you follow the application rates). It is a great product and a game changer when it was allowed introduced. Dithiopyr or prodiamine will prevent anything(good, bad and the ugly) from developing. Quinclorac could be used on some weeds after a couple of mowing of the new grass. So, yes you could start with Tenacity, then Drive, then a PreM.

I think we need to see your thin lawn/weedy lawn. Post a picture and we could help with the decision.

 

[ericgautier]

I think we need to see your thin lawn/weedy lawn. Post a picture and we could help with the decision.

+1.

I always go back to this post I saw a few years ago... a little bit goes a long way.

Just wanted to share a few before/after pics. "Before" pics are from last fall, "After" pics are from last week.

I would have posted this under the Reno topic, but it's not a reno. It's not even an overseed. After finding this site last fall, all I did over the last 6 months was: hand pull as much crabgrass as I could find; apply Oceangro; apply 2,4D; start cutting at the highest mower setting. The random Northeast mix of grasses did the rest all by itself.

I know this lawn is not up to the elite KBG standards you guys hold, and I'll eventually do a full reno, but I already have the best looking front lawn on the block with these few simple steps.

Thanks to all for sharing your knowledge.

Before
http://postimg.cc/image/kunbxphod/

http://postimg.cc/image/doz95zkkz/

After
http://postimg.cc/image/nenk5jum5/

http://postimg.cc/image/dhl6r0t53/

 

[gene_stl]

That one reminds me of my lawn in certain spots. It also reminds me of what I did at my first house which was about double that lawn size. (I also was 40 years younger )
I did set the new zero turn to its hightest setting all season except at the very end when I started ratcheting down one quarter inch per mow. I still had two notches to go when the season ended. I think that definitely helped the lawn. But our severe drought didn't. I will try and get some pix today.

 

[kds]

I did a spring rehab last year, and it was hard to keep the grass alive through the summer. Much of it died of drought. A bunch of it also died from disease. I consider it money down the drain. Seed, water (lots of it), equipment rental, fertilizer, Tenacity, fungicide. I wish I hadn't done it. You have to do things just right and fall into some luck for things to go the way you want.

Tenacity is also great. No concerns about it being wimpy, it worked really well keeping the weeds out for me.

 

[gene_stl]

Here is a gallery of about 27 pitchers:

https://postimg.cc/gallery/34j43n81m/

In our family we have a saying, "Whether you're rich or poor , it's nice to have money!"
The guy across the street is doing a REAL renovation. I have been hearing dump trucks and caterpillars and komatsu's
dumping and scraping and leveling.
https://postimg.cc/image/sm1sbyq7t/
He built those gates. The house is like a block away. He built a building with bowling alleys and indoor rifle range. I think that is the building with the solar cells. He wanted to put in a heliport but the city wouldn't allow it. The blue little flag is my property line more or less.

If you want to tour the situation start at the lowest number image and just go sequentially. I appreciate everyone's input.

 

[g-man]

Hey, don't take pictures of my property. I don't get why the city did not approve my heliport.

I saw the picture and would say that 90% of the lawn looks good. Prem and fertilizer and it will be great. The sections like image 640 look to have weeds. I would overseed only those areas now and in the fall.