[Hoosier]

My TTTF lawn has recently been invaded by Bermuda - fescue is taking a beating with the hot/dry weather, and at this point, I'm just trying to keep it alive through August. Next door neighbor has Bermuda, and blows his clippings into my lawn, so that certainly doesn't help, but I'm not going to have that conversation with him, as the relationship isn't great. I may run a mulch bed along that property line in the near future, but that aside for now...

In the spring, I sprayed Ornamec 170 along that property line a few times, 30 days apart, and that seems to be keeping the Bermuda at bay in that area, but at the expense of really stressing the fescue. Last treatment was late May, but due to the weather, I'm hesitant to apply any more.

I'm now seeing Bermuda pop up all over my lawn, and plan to rotate Ornamec/Triclopyr and Tenacity/Triclopyr (Pylex isn't an option for me at $450+ per bottle) every 30 days in the Fall/Spring, but it stresses me out to think that, left untreated, the Bermuda is going to continue spreading for the next couple months, leaving me with an even bigger infestation to try to get rid of starting in the fall.

I mow at 4 inches, but haven't mowed for over a week, and plan to let it go even more to get through the next couple months, along with hopefully shading out the Bermuda.

I'm thinking my 2 option are (both involve repair/overseeding in the fall):
1) Let it go until I can start treatments again, which means the Bermuda will spread even more over the next couple months, but the fescue won't take any more abuse than it already is from the weather
2) Resume monthly treatments to keep Bermuda from spreading further, knowing I'll probably kill the fescue in some areas in the process, maybe making it even easier for the Bermuda to spread when it recovers

Any thoughts on the best course of action? A complete kill isn't going to be an option for me in the fall, due to budget and the time commitment that will require.

 

[ForsheeMS]

I fought the same battle the last 4 years using Fusilade II/Triclopyr. I would start treatments in the affected areas as soon as I saw the slightest bit of color in the bermuda, usually late April. I would continue until the weather got to the point the fescue couldn't take it and stop. Even leaving the fescue at 4.5" to 5" tall it wouldn't stop the bermuda. Problem is with our weather the bermuda still has 2 to 3 months of ideal growing weather when it can't be treated. Finally broke down last August and nuked just the areas of bermuda and so far this year it hasn't come back. This year the house next door where the bermuda comes from is vacant and I have been treating their yard with the same combo. The bermuda is definitely hurting but so is the little bit of fescue that was there. This "test" basically has confirmed that summertime treatment in our climate is going to harm the fescue.

I am hoping this house will remain vacant through the rest of this year. If so I will nuke whatever is left of their lawn up to their driveway (about 30 feet) and reseed it this fall with some K31. If this works out I should be good as the rest of the lawns in my neighborhood are separated from mine by either asphalt or concrete.

 

[social port]

It is a really difficult problem.
From what I understand Pylex may be the safest route (for fescue), but most of us do not want to put $400 down at one time.
Given that Pylex is not an option, I like glyphosate. The only way to beat bermuda is to kill it--several times, more than likely. Fusilade etc. will help you control and maybe even kill some. But you risk your fescue every time that you apply it, and your payoff is uncertain with respect to Bermuda. With glyphosate, you are killing your fescue, but you are also killing the bermuda, even if you have to hit it 3-4 times. And, as far as I know, if it's in the process of dying, the plant cannot spread further.
That is my rather extreme strategy. I'm not saying it is smart, efficient, friendly, best practices etc etc. But in my experience, you cannot play around with bermuda.

One other strategy you might look into: Does triclopyr, by itself, prevent bermuda from spreading? If so, it might be safer to apply than the fusilade-triclopyr combo. I applied triclopyr two weeks or so ago. No damage to the fescue at all. It was hot, but wasn't this 90+ stretch that we've had recently.
If you could at least prevent the spread of bermuda with triclopyr, that would be an advantage in my opinion. You could focus on kill next spring, as soon as it is greening, as ForsheeMS mentioned. Keep in mind that the more it spreads, the bigger your problem, the harder the kill.

Not a very good 'feel-good' post, I know. I feel your pain.

 

[social port]

Also, given the two options you present, I would go with 2, with the understanding that you are very likely to kill your fescue, especially with this weather. If at all possible, try to apply when it is below 85 degrees. That might mean early morning applications for you.
This route may, in theory, make it even easier for the bermuda to spread, but if your fescue is already comatose, then hitting that spreading bermuda again with your combo herbicide won't matter to much in terms of preserving your fescue.

 

[gene_stl]

My first two broadcast applications(Tenacity and Quinclorac) which I mainly intended to control crabgrass killed a couple of large areas of bermuda grass that I had not even noticed were there. I would remind everyone too that Pylex is also available as Armezon.

https://feedersgrain.com/search?q=armezon

This might be more feasible. Even Tenacity killed it dead in two applications at least in my lawn. And in some places where I may have only got it once it lit it up.

I do have a jug of Glyphosate for weeds and invasive honeysuckle but I just can' t bring myself to use it on my grass. I was able to murder a bunch of dallis grass and got a bunch of bermuda too. Since Ornamec is one of the agents recommended for dallis also I put a short dose of it in my dallis murder juice. It so far has not killed my kbg.

Here right now it is too hot to put anything on the lawn. I would consider eradicating areas where the bermuda is 100%. But right now I ain't goin outside. But between Pylex , Tenacity and Ornamec it seems like you could get rid of it without killing your lawn. Especially if you have tttf which Ornamec is labeled for. I do intend to go after the bermuda too because it makes my lawn look awful in the winter. I actually don't mind the way it looks while green. But like zoysia we are too far north here in st. louis.

I agree you should keep hammering it with the above mentioned agent. I notice in one of the turf management books I downloaded that Triclopyr is supposed to prevent bleaching. It doesn't say how this happens. Since you have tttf I would hit it hard with Ornamec after lighting it up with Tenacity.

 

[Hoosier]

Thank you all for the input, really helps. I'm going to go ahead and treat now with Ornamec and Triclopyr, since that's what I have. As mentioned, Ornamec worked for me as a preventative, so we'll see how that with Triclopyr works to suppress it. Just ordered Tenacity, so will mix that with Triclopyr for the next treatment, dropping the Triclopyr from the mix at the end of August, as I've read Triclopyr and new seed don't mix well. I'll probably even mix the Ornamec and Tenacity as the Bermuda starts prepping for dormancy and the fescue is perking up, because, well, why not?? We have rain and cooler temps in the forecast for the next week or so, so hopefully that holds, and gives the fescue some relief. I will report back on this thread over the next couple months in the event that other people have the same issue and come across this.

A couple follow-up questions. I know Pylex turns the Bermuda white... Does anyone know what and how soon after treating there will be a visible indication of the Ornamec/Triclopyr or Tenacity/Triclopyr treatment on the Bermuda? Also, as it seems I'm going to have to work this into my routine plan every year, would a pre-emergent have helped prevent this at all, or not so much due to it spreading with runners as opposed to seed? I did 1 app of Pre-M late April this year (thought I was buying the 1 with Barricade, but realized I didn't once I got it home), but plan to switch to two 1/2 rate apps of Prodiamine in Feb and March next year. Wondering if I should add a Dithiopyr app in late April/early May as well if that would help.

 

[Hoosier]

Also @gene_stl thanks for the note about Armezon. Checked the labels... Pylex = 29.7% topramezone. Armezon is 1.12% topramezone + 56.25% of something that looks like 2,4-D, $376 for 2.5 gallons at the site I saw it on. I wonder if this would have a similar effect on the Bermuda at a higher rate?

Just did a little more looking around and Impact (Amvac Chemical Corp) is also 29.7% topramezone, same as Pylex. A site called chemicaloutfitters has a 30oz bottle of Impact for $399... so, almost 4x the amount of product for less than most places sell the 8oz bottle of Pylex. It's still $400, and even 8oz would last most homeowners a few years at 1oz/A app rates, but maybe they sell this in a smaller quantity somewhere, or someone has a neighbor or 2 that would want to split a bottle of Impact 3 ways. Not sure why I haven't come across this before... same active ingredient and %, same effect, right? Maybe BASF is just a lot better at marketing their product?

 

[ForsheeMS]

From what I've experienced the Ornamec(Fluazifop)/Triclopyr combo gives the bermuda a pale color and causes brown spots to form on the leaves. If the app is heavy enough it will also do the same to the fescue. I wonder if 1/2 rate apps more often would still get the bermuda but be easier on the fescue?

I also wonder if you could push the bermuda growth into the fall with medium urea apps follow by the Onamec/Triclopyr apps to do more damage. I've always felt like herbicides work much better on healthy grass. Might be worth a try.

Pre-m might help prevent bermuda sprouting from seed but it won't do anything for existing roots or stolons that are already present.

 

[gene_stl]

Armezon is also 29.7 topramezone. It is only labeled for ag use.

@ForsheeMS
I have only sprayed Ornamec twice. Tenacity two apps has killed and bleached all kinds of stuff in the lawn and helped me notice them. I used short rates of Ornamec since it isn't labeled for kbg. I am going to go full rate on the 100% stands of bermuda. I am going to do it while it is hot and the bermuda is alive. Fertilizing it does not sound like a bad idea. I have Ammonium Sulfate on hand but have not yet added it to any spray mixes because getting everything into the mix is enough trouble with multiple agents, sticker and dye. Even with power sprayers that's a lot of work. :evil:

 

[social port]

@gene_stl your post regarding Ornamec and KBG is the first that I've read suggesting that they can be safely paired. Any time that I have tried to determine whether Ornamec is safe for KBG, the question always ends with uncertainty.

You used the lowest suggested rate on KBG and it was spared?

 

[gene_stl]

I used about a one third rate just do add some of its AI because fluazifop is mentioned as being Dallisicidal. I knew I was taking a risk. It did not seem to harm the grass. The sulfentrazone which was also in the first mix seems to have hurt and bleached more the second time (no ornamec and no MSMA because I ran out and no Tenacity because I wanted to know what what going on and what might be doing what) but it had gotten MUCH hotter here. The rate was one third to one half recommended for tttf. The label rate for spot treating tttf is 10 oz for five gallons and I put in three or four fluid oz into five gallons.

I have an iris bed that is infested with ornamental Paspalum that looks like giant dallis grass. I am going to try an over the top spray of Ornamec 170.

Since this morning I went out to look at the results and the sedges are completely toasted. Some of the Dallis grass is just wounded. Very tough stuff. Most of it is deceased though. I think.

 

[social port]

Thanks for posting, @gene_stl :thumbup:
So, your rate may be safe for KBG, but I suppose we don't know if that safe rate would threaten the Bermuda.

It was the combination of quinclorac and tenacity that took out the Bermuda. Hmmm

 

[gene_stl]

Well don't put Ornamec on your kbg because I got away with it. Though look at my pictures under "killing sedges"
the more gentle two ingredient spray really bleached the lawn. The witches brew did not. But again we had a heat wave after the second spray.

https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3745&p=69606#p69606

 

[Delmarva Keith]

My TTTF lawn has recently been invaded by Bermuda - fescue is taking a beating with the hot/dry weather, and at this point, I'm just trying to keep it alive through August. Next door neighbor has Bermuda, and blows his clippings into my lawn, so that certainly doesn't help, but I'm not going to have that conversation with him, as the relationship isn't great. I may run a mulch bed along that property line in the near future, but that aside for now...

In the spring, I sprayed Ornamec 170 along that property line a few times, 30 days apart, and that seems to be keeping the Bermuda at bay in that area, but at the expense of really stressing the fescue. Last treatment was late May, but due to the weather, I'm hesitant to apply any more.

I'm now seeing Bermuda pop up all over my lawn, and plan to rotate Ornamec/Triclopyr and Tenacity/Triclopyr (Pylex isn't an option for me at $450+ per bottle) every 30 days in the Fall/Spring, but it stresses me out to think that, left untreated, the Bermuda is going to continue spreading for the next couple months, leaving me with an even bigger infestation to try to get rid of starting in the fall.

I mow at 4 inches, but haven't mowed for over a week, and plan to let it go even more to get through the next couple months, along with hopefully shading out the Bermuda.

I'm thinking my 2 option are (both involve repair/overseeding in the fall):
1) Let it go until I can start treatments again, which means the Bermuda will spread even more over the next couple months, but the fescue won't take any more abuse than it already is from the weather
2) Resume monthly treatments to keep Bermuda from spreading further, knowing I'll probably kill the fescue in some areas in the process, maybe making it even easier for the Bermuda to spread when it recovers

Any thoughts on the best course of action? A complete kill isn't going to be an option for me in the fall, due to budget and the time commitment that will require.

First off I'd say completely killing bermuda in fescue is impossible. Never stopped me from trying.
The philosophy is to try to get as much as possible during Spring green up when it's vulnerable and then again through the end of Summer as it tries to store carbs for winter dormancy. The colder your winter, the more winter kill you get.

The tenacity / triclopyr combo can do a pretty good job in Spring but it's never 100% and Bermuda recovery is like a zombie movie character. For me this year, I plan on starting tenacity / triclopyr late July (scheduling constraints with a party to be held at the site so I can't start earlier), a second app two weeks later around the first week of August and then two more apps of tenacity alone, the last one being immediately before seeding in early to mid September. That will give me more than 3 weeks post triclopyr for overseeding. All tenacity apps at the 4 oz. per acre rate so max per year not exceeded.

I've got nothing else up my sleeve as an alternative so that's what I suggest. The hope is that the constant banging it every two weeks as it goes towards dormancy, even at the lower rate of tenacity, is enough for a kill.

If that doesn't do it this round, it will be pylex next season. The Bermuda has got to go. :nod:

I can add that I had pretty good results in the past with a super aggressive dethatch and heavy overseed during Fall. It did completely eliminate the Bermuda in some spots, I assume due to shading during its Spring green up. Not anywhere near 100% for all spots though.

 

[g-man]

I read a report once of a 3way being fairly effective with bermuda. It was Tenacity, triclopyr and acclaim in 3 spring apps and 3 fall apps. They did go outside the yearly max for tenacity.

 

[Hoosier]

I went ahead and sprayed the other day, 3oz Ornamec and 1.5oz Triclopyr. This is the recommended amount on the bottles for 2,000sf, and I figure I treated around 2,500sf, maybe more, since I was spot spraying. So, it might have gotten a lighter dose, which I'm ok with. If no visible damage to the fescue beyond what it already has from the weather, I'm going to hit it with Tenacity/Triclopyr in 2-3 weeks, more if I'm seeing significant fescue damage that needs to recover. That will be more of a blanket app so I can monitor exactly how much product I'm using.

Haven't noticed anything yet, but it's only been a bit more than 36 hours since I sprayed.

@g-man I found something mentioning Acclaim as well (http://oak.ppws.vt.edu/~saskew/wiregrass_control.pdf), pretty good write-up. I don't know a thing about the different modes of action of these chemicals (maybe something I'll research when I have time), but assuming they all work a bit differently, it would certainly make sense that combining would give the best results.

 

[Hoosier]

Here's a picture of some Bermuda that I pulled from the yard almost exactly 48 hours after spraying Ornamec/Turflon. The one on the left was either missed (most likely) or not yet showing signs of being treated. The one on the far right took the most damage, and that appears to be because it was newer/less established than some of the rest of the Bermuda.

No visible signs of stress to the fescue, other than what was already apparent due to weather. From past experience, the Ornamec doesn't hurt the fescue with 1 treatment, but starts to show signs of stress with 2 treatments 30 days apart. So, as mentioned before, I'm going to go Tenacity/Turflon for the next treatment, then back to Ornamec (if there's enough time before Fall seeding), and will probably rotate back and forth between the two for each treatment, or maybe mix them in the spring when the Bermuda is greening but the fescue is growing like crazy.

 

[gene_stl]

First off I'd say completely killing bermuda in fescue is impossible. Never stopped me from trying.

As one researches this it becomes clear that killing things like bermuda and dallis and maybe even sedges are life styles. :lol: :lol:

I don't really understand why adding triclopyr results in LESS bleaching but that is what the turf scientists report. I think when you are just starting to beat a plot into submission using multiple agents makes sense and you have to be willing to accept some damage to the desirable turf. At least I am. Now it has cooled down and rained several times. Gonna go out again.
Tenacity and Triclopyr on the bermuda. Sulfentrazone and Sedgehammer on the Sedges (they are mostly isolated so the sulfentrazone won't matter if it burns a little although there is lots of moisture now and predicted cooler temps for a while may recover some of the previous heat stress and drought stress. Some other mix for the dallis.

Interesting Bermuda control factoid. On the Tupersan label there is a short paragraph about bermuda grass stolon control in bentgrass putting greens. Unfortunately Gordon's locks the label pdf so you will need to look at yourself if interested. Tupersan is expensive and is a wettable granule. But it might be worth adding to a bermuda control witches brew. It is gentle and labeled for use on seedlings which it was the original for that. I was thinking of adding it to the dallis juice but it specifically mentions that dallis is not controlled. Then I noticed that it suppresses bermuda spreading. Doesn't kill it but should help with the suppression.

 

[gene_stl]

BERMUDAGRASS SUPPRESSION INTO CREEPING BENTGRASS GREENS: Greens established with creeping bentgrass may be surrounded by
bermudagrass collars and aprons. Mixtures of creeping bentgrass and bermudagrass result in poor putting surfaces. The selectivity of Tupersan
Herbicide can suppress the bermudagrass encroachment without injury to the bentgrass.
Tupersan Herbicide can be applied as a band treatment along the perimeter of the greens to suppress the stolon growth of the bermudagrass.
Use ½ - 1 pound of Tupersan Herbicide per 1,000 sq. ft. and apply in a 8 - 12 inch band with a single nozzle sprayer. Schedule the initial application
during March or April and continue with subsequent applications at the same application rate at 4 - 5 week intervals.

I managed to unlock the pdf. even though it's a horrible weed here in St. Louis it does look good and I can see how you could get used to it. It just all turns brown as soon as it gets cold. Same with Zoysia. I am going to light up my bermuda weed with Tenacity and then go after it with Pylex (which I don't have on hand yet) Ornamec spotting and Tupersan to damage the stolons. There is enough of it that the LawnZilla will look very bad.

 

[Hoosier]

Quick follow-up question on this... when applying these products for the intended purpose of suppressing bermuda, should these be applied as a foliar application or should they be watered in to the roots? I've seen in other topics, when applying Tenacity at seed down in order to get the weed pre-m benefit, that it's recommended to be watered in, but wasn't sure if that's the case with Bermuda suppression?

I'm thinking that since the fescue is still fairly thick (I'm keeping HOC at 4.25" during this heat, and letting it grow to 5-6" before cutting), a foliar application may not hit all of the bermuda that may be "hiding" lower to the ground, but obviously post-m weed products are not supposed to be watered in, so a little unsure for this purpose...