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SP's fall reseed 2017

37567 Views 218 Replies 18 Participants Last post by  social port
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I've decided to keep a thread on my attempt to reseed this fall. I am pretty clear on my plan and am reasonably confident in a positive outcome. That being said, my first (ever) reseed this spring did not turn out well at all. If I am going to make a colossal mistake during my second reseed, at least I will have the advantage of someone possibly pointing out my mistake before I make it. Plus, we all like pictures, and I plan to take plenty.

Background
This is a new construction lawn that is nearly one year old. The area is almost 20,000 sq feet. No trees. Minimal shade. There is some sloping in the front yard and one side yard. Word in the neighborhood is that it is difficult to get grass to grow on these slopes (I plan to use a very thin layer of Scott's patch master to help the seed stay in place on the slopes).

The lawn had just been seeded when we moved in last September. Growth was minimal for several weeks. I believe it was at least the 2nd or 3rd week before we saw any growth at all. At the time, I was too busy with the move and family stuff to really take care of the new grass-not to mention that I really had no idea where to start at the time. By the winter, the grass had filled in quite a bit.

By March - April 2017, the lawn was thin, but at least I had grass. Here is what it looked like.





Around April I put down granular weed control, but did not get the results that I wanted. I'm pretty sure that I was way, way too light on my application. I then did a lot of homework on turf care. At some point I thought I would take a chance on reseeding. My thinking was that I might be able to thicken the lawn up and help prevent further weed growth. That, and I really felt that my options were limited since I had just put down a weed control product (Liquid herbicide seemed too daunting at the time). After dutifully waiting my 30 interval, I did said reseed with starter fertilizer and regular watering (no pre-emergent). The net effect was voluminous weed growth. I know that I had some germination, but the effort was generally unsuccessful. The weeds, especially crabgrass, took over as much space as possible. As I later learned in TLF, a spring reseed for a cool season grass was a losing plan in any case.

So, I did more homework on turf care. And then some more. Etc, etc.
I've been spending the summer on the basics-just trying to practice good mowing, correcting poor watering habits, learning the lay of my lawn, practicing edging, measuring sprinkler output, reading through TLF like its a NY best-seller novel, learning how to utilize impact sprinklers to more effectively cover all areas of the yard, doing even more homework, etc. I've applied baby shampoo 3-4 times this summer to alleviate substantial compaction. It has been effective. I've also been trying to eliminate unwanted grass with Ornamec. I had a brief period of fungal infection that went away with improved watering practices. I would have liked to put down some compost, but that's an expensive endeavor with 20ksqft. I have also wanted to level out my yard, but I figure that leveling is better done during a total renovation.
The lawn was looking like this during the summer.





On 8/15 I applied a 15-15-15 fertilizer to encourage weed growth and to address low phosphorous and potassium. On 8/16 I applied a second round of weed-killer (Bayer, WBG, RU) after an initial app around 8/4.
Here's what I am working with at the present time, embarrassing as it is.









I know. I know. Total reno is probably warranted here.

Much of the discoloration and death is from Ornamec. Otherwise, the discoloration/death is from the weed-killing products.
My next step is to apply glyphosate to some unwanted grass--probably in a matter of days. In another week or so, I may apply glyphosate to whatever weeds are still hanging around.

After that, I'm looking at applications of humic acid and kelp extract, dethatching with a dethatcher (also hoping to loosen the soil here a bit), reseeding, and Scott's fert with mesotrione. I'm still not sure if I will be mowing down gradually or if I will take inches off all at once - and only once. Gradual is usually the recommendation, but I've read of people doing it all at once. I'm worried that if I keep cutting low for a month or so, other vegetation will creep in.

I'm reseeding with TTTF from Bob Hogan. I'm honestly not sure what is currently growing. I see what I believe is KY31 in places (I may end up killing this off), but I also see some grass that is darker and not clumpy. It is possible that the builder used two types of fescue. Some of the darker grass could be from my reseed as well.

I should be set for seed down by 9/17, but I may wait a bit later, depending on temperature.
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Wow. No post for seven days, and my thread is way, way back on the third page. Seems like things have been booming here in the cool season paradise forum.
Today was rock day. I made a college effort to collect the masses of small rocks and concrete chips scattered here and there. I ended up using a thatch rake to put them in piles, then I just used the old five-finger scoop to dump them in bags.

I also took out some rather large rocks. Pictures to follow.

My soil seems to have liked my recent apps of baby shampoo, kelp extract, and humic acid. The long screwdriver is going down like the soil is butter. I'm really liking what I am seeing here.

I've got a (probably) final glyphosate app coming up tomorrow. Then things are gonna get serious. Seed down next weekend.

I'm so tempted to put another .5-1 pound of phosphorous and potassium down in the next day or two. Given that I put down 3/4 pound 11 days ago and that I will be putting over a pound down next week, I think this extra app I want to do would be pushing things too much. At the same time, I'm open to having my mind changed ;)
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Here they are. My wonderful specimens. These things came up like pancakes with a shovel--thanks to my happy soil.
Left these puppies in the driveway. I'm not yet sure what I'm going to do with them. (vols fan mentioned something about a weighted thatch rake...haha). My wife is really going to enjoy seeing these sitting in the driveway tomorrow morning.




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You should make something like they did for the 2010 winter Olympics. Put it somewhere it over looks your yard. :lol:
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Just now reading some of this thread. There was some confusion on rate for SOP. You asked about using 2 lb/k since it was 0-0-50. The answer you got was to keep it to 1 lb/k. Using 2 lb/k of SOP will get you 1 lb/k of potassium. It is best to keep nutrients at 1 lb/k or less per month. I think the confusion was over 1 lb/k of what: the product or the nutrient? You divide the fertilizer N or P or K number into 100 and that will give you the number of lb/k to supply 1 lb/k of the nutrient. For your 6-20-20 fertiizer, using 5 lb/k of it will get you 0.3 lb/k of N, 1 lb/k of P and 1 lb/k of K.

Since your CEC is on the low side (low but not terrible), your soil does not hold onto nutrients too well, so it's better to do more frequent applications at lower rates. Twice a month at half rate is better than once a month at full rate. Organic feedings are beneficial since you rely more on the soil life to retain nutrients rather than the soil itself. In general slow release is better for you than fast release. Adding a lot of one thing can cause you to lose other things, creating imbalances (think of musical chairs and there being more kids and just a few chairs). Organic matter can help raise CEC but don't expect anything dramatic. Do some reading on CEC: you may find it fascinating.
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LawnNerd said:
You should make something like they did for the 2010 winter Olympics. Put it somewhere it over looks your yard. :lol:
I think that is pretty awesome and am actually tempted to do something like that. The only problem is that an imposing, quasi-spiritual rock formation probably won't look right in the middle of suburbia (say, in between my grille and my neighbor's
hot tub :lol: )
Thanks for commenting, Virginiagal. It's always nice to hear your input.
Virginiagal said:
I think the confusion was over 1 lb/k of what: the product or the nutrient?
Yes, I think that is a distinction that one can easily lose track of. In this case, I was referring to nutrients and was assuming 1 lb/k of nutrient rather than of product.
Virginiagal said:
It is best to keep nutrients at 1 lb/k or less per month.
Ok, that is a clear vote against putting an extra dose of P and K in between now and seed-down next weekend.
Virginiagal said:
Adding a lot of one thing can cause you to lose other things, creating imbalances (think of musical chairs and there being more kids and just a few chairs)
Really nice to have this insight. It helps me remember that soil activity operates like a complex, dynamic system--everything is in relation to everything else.
Also, I was thinking that I might get away with a heavy-handed dose of P and K right now because most of my grass is dead. That was assuming, of course, that doses above 1 lb per month are not recommended so as to protect grass. However, what you are pointing out is that it is the soil that shouldn't get more than 1 lb per month because exceeding this dosage could compromise the composition of other nutrients, pH, etc. There is too much risk for creating an imbalance.
Virginiagal said:
You divide the fertilizer N or P or K number into 100 and that will give you the number of lb/k to supply 1 lb/k of the nutrient
That's a convenient way to make the calculation. I've been using a method that is very cumbersome. Thanks for suggesting this alternative.
Virginiagal said:
Organic feedings are beneficial since you rely more on the soil life to retain nutrients rather than the soil itself
Yes, I've been wanting to add compost. That's the strongest option for improving CEC, wouldn't you say? Doing so is very costly with 20k sq ft. I've put down Milorganite this year, but my need for P and K makes Milo a less attractive option. Perhaps going forward I could do a blend of Milo and a low nitrogen, high P and K synthetic. I've been leaving my grass clippings, too. I saw a few earthworms last week. I didn't see any last year, so I figure that I am making some progress.
Virginiagal said:
Since your CEC is on the low side (low but not terrible), your soil does not hold onto nutrients too well, so it's better to do more frequent applications at lower rates.
That would suggest that it would be more beneficial to use a half rate of starter fertilizer at seed down and then follow up with a half rate two weeks later (as opposed to doing a full dose at seed down and a second full dose one month later).
That should give me optimal results based on my soil's ability to retain the NPK from the fertilizer, right?
If so, there is one additional concern: I'm using starter fertilizer with mesotrione in it. If I do a split dose of NPK twice per month, will that give me an effective dose of mesotrione at both application times?
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I did another application of glyphosate yesterday. The vast majority of what should be dead sure does look dead. I have had a lot of green onion growth over the past week, so I had to get that under control. There is still some dallisgrass hanging on here and there. And I've still got some warm season grass wanting to come in. Chances are that I'm going to have a bit of spot-spraying to do before next weekend.

I've also ordered 20 more pounds of seed since I've killed more of my lawn than I was originally planning.

The temps next weekend are projected to be in the upper 80s. That is not at all what I wanted. The high temperature should not exceed 80 based on historical averages. Delaying seeding is a reasonable suggestion, but then all the worry would be about when the first frost is coming.
If youre using starter with mesotrione, that will be your basis and guiding factor. Spoon feeding p & k at 2 weeks won't harm your grass babies, spoon feeding tenacity will.
I agree with LawnNerd. Do not add more mesotrione to young seedlings. Read the bag. It should have directions on when followup applications are safe. I was just talking about fertilization in general. Do a full application when seeding. Some may leach away, so be it. You don't want the herbicide again until safe and for that matter you don't want to walk on your seedlings more than necessary.

Besides Milorganite you can use grains as organic feedings. Compost isn't really a feeding. I've used alfalfa pellets (rabbit food) and cracked corn and cornmeal. There is also soybean meal and cottonseed meal, if you can find it. All of them have some NPK. I suggest it because it's slow release and it's retained by the soil life. You're not depending upon the cation sites. The weather must be warm so the soil life is active. Milorganite has a good supply of phosphorus. If you find sulfate of potassium (0-0-50), you could use that as a potassium source since Milorganite doesn't have much potassium. Organic matter (other than organic fertilizer) is always good. The easiest way to get some is mow your leaves in the fall, leaving them on the lawn chopped into bits. After you mow yours, bring over leaves neighbors leave on the street and mow them in too. Leaving clippings is good. Besides compost, you might find a source of sawdust.

What was the depth of soil you reported on the soil test? I could do a little more analysis on the test but I would need to know the depth to convert lb/ac to ppm (Logan reports lb/ac for whatever depth is reported).
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Don't delay your seeding. You'll be watering. The seeds will be fine. You want as much growing time as possible during these golden months of September and October before everything slows down.
^ as always, sound advice from virginagal. Don't delay the seeding. The weather might turn cold next week and you would have missed another week. Follow the general seeding time from a university close to you (UT?).
LawnNerd said:
If youre using starter with mesotrione, that will be your basis and guiding factor. Spoon feeding p & k at 2 weeks won't harm your grass babies, spoon feeding tenacity will.
That just illustrates how much room for error there is in this lawn care craft. The only possible downside I could imagine was that a half-rate app of mesotrione wouldn't be an effective rate and would therefore be virtually useless. It never occurred to me that smaller doses at a higher frequency would be detrimental.

Virginiagal said:
I was just talking about fertilization in general.
Roger that. My tendency is to extrapolate, which usually isn't the wisest thing to do.

Virginiagal said:
and for that matter you don't want to walk on your seedlings more than necessary.
Yeah, I didn't even think about that entailment in my suggestion. Good point.

Virginiagal said:
Compost isn't really a feeding.
Looks like I need to do some more reading about the benefits of compost.

Virginiagal said:
I've used alfalfa pellets (rabbit food) and cracked corn and cornmeal. There is also soybean meal and cottonseed meal, if you can find it.
Next spring, I may have some warm season grass trying to make a return. Because of that threat, I was considering holding off fertilization until fall (not sure about this yet. I haven't thought it through or done enough research). Perhaps I could try using some of the 'foods' you suggest to work on the soil during the spring. Doing so would make my soil healthier without giving a large nitrogen boost to any lurking warm season grass during its optimal growing period.

Virginiagal said:
What was the depth of soil you reported on the soil test? I could do a little more analysis on the test but I would need to know the depth to convert lb/ac to ppm (Logan reports lb/ac for whatever depth is reported).
That is very generous. I took about 15 or so samples from as close to 3 inches as I could.
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Virginiagal said:
Don't delay your seeding. You'll be watering. The seeds will be fine. You want as much growing time as possible during these golden months of September and October before everything slows down.
g-man said:
^ as always, sound advice from virginagal. Don't delay the seeding. The weather might turn cold next week and you would have missed another week. Follow the general seeding time from a university close to you (UT?).
Thanks to both of you. Message received. The pros in the area went to work with their seeding efforts this past weekend. I'll be a week behind, but it really couldn't be avoided.
High 80s or not, my seeds are going down :thumbup:
At soil depth of 3 inches, lb/ac=ppm. Calcium should be >750 ppm and you have 937, so no calcium needed. Your pH is spot on too, so avoid lime. Magnesium should be>140 ppm and you have 97, a shortage of 43. Potassium should be >110 ppm and you have 33, a shortage of 77. These ppm sufficency levels are based on SLAN, whereas Logan calculates shortages according to an "ideal" ratio. For low CEC soils, you could have an ideal ratio but still be short in nutrients. Also Logan is assuming you are amending only the reported depth. That's why their shortages differ from the SLAN figures above.

To amend 6 inches of soil, multiply ppm by 2 to get lb/ac for 6 inches. So your magnesium shortage is 86 lb/ac, which is 2 lb/k. Your potassium shortage is 154 lb/ac, which is 3.5 lb/k. What amount of product would make up the shortage? Magnesium often comes in magnesium sulfate form which is about 10% magnesium. You would need 20 lb/k of something with 10% magnesium. Potassium comes in K2O form. The K in NPK is actually K2O (potash), which is about 83% potassium. So to make up a 3.5 lb/k shortage, you would need 4.2 lb/k of potash (the K in NPK).

You have 16 ppm of P2O5, which is 7 ppm of P. It should be >50 ppm, so your shortage is 43 ppm. Amending 6 inches, your shortage is 86 lb/ac or 2 lb/k. It will take 4.5 lb/k of P2O5 (the form phosphorus comes in).

Boron is very low, manganese is high. Since your soil is not acidic,, the manganese is probably not a problem. It would be good to add a teensy bit of boron. You can mix 5 tablespoon of Borax (laundry powder) for each 1000 square feet with Milorganite, mist it so it sticks to the Milorganite, and spread it that way. So if you were spreading a bag of Milorganite over 2500 square feet, use 12.5 tablespoons for that 2500 square feet.

For the things you're short in, think of that as a yearly project and you're making up the shortages over a year. With a shortage in both magnesium and potassium, KMag or Sul-Po-Mag could be a good choice to supply both magnesium and potassium. It has no nitrogen, so you can use it without stimulating growth at inappropriate times. You want to do small amounts at a time, like half what the bag suggests.

Most of your nitrogen fertilization should be in the fall. Non nitrogen products can be used spring through fall.
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Come on, Ridgerunner. I was hoping you'd chime in. What caught your attention?
Nothing really. This is what I edited out:
I took about 15 or so samples from as close to 3 inches as I could.
What VG needs to know is what depth did you report to Logan? Specifically, what depth does the Logan report show as the depth?
Edit: appears I'm a couple of minutes too late. :eek:

Carry on. :)
Yes, that's what I needed to know: what was reported. I assume you reported 3 inches. If you reported something different, that changes the figures. Logan assumes if you report 3 inches, you included soil from 0-3 and that's the total amount of soil you wish to amend. Most times, no matter what depth you reported, you generally want to amend 6 inches worth of soil, so you adjust.
Ridgerunner said:
What VG needs to know is what depth did you report to Logan?
One and the same. I took from 3 inches and reported 3 inches. The Logan analysis assumed 3 inches.

Virginiagal said:
You have 16 ppm of P2O5, which is 7 ppm of P. It should be >50 ppm, so your shortage is 43 ppm. Amending 6 inches, your shortage is 86 lb/ac or 2 lb/k. It will take 4.5 lb/k of P2O5 (the form phosphorus comes in).
This was especially concerning to me. I didn't have the specifics to think with, but I knew that I had a substantial P deficiency.

The starter fertilizer seemed like a good option for me, even if it did come with more nitrogen than I was looking for. Starter fertilizer can provide a nice dose of P and K. Outside of that, I wasn't sure how to amend the P deficiency.

I didn't know about the magnesium shortage. KMag looks like a better option than SOP.

Thank you for providing this analysis. This gives me a lot to learn and consider, and it is really, really helpful. I'd better draw up some plans for spring.

So I can assume that applications of Boron, Magnesium, and Potassium will not encourage growth in a warm season grass during the springtime? I know that you mentioned using non-N products in the spring, but I want to be crystal clear. I've spent so much time and money working towards a fescue-only lawn this past year.
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All nutrients encourage growth in various ways. Nitrogen is the speed demon of top growth.
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