[Green]

I have two small patches of clover I need to spot spray in the upper back. I'm going to use Triclopyr. Normally I use a NIS with that. I understand that it should ideally be below 80 degrees or so when I spray with Triclopyr.

I have a couple of questions...

@thegrassfactor mentioned in a video recently that wild violets and creeping charlie harden off this time of year, which is why they're tough to kill...the herbicide doesn't get through well. Does a similar thing happen with clover? If so, should I still use the NIS, or should I use methylated seed oil (not even sure if MSO is ok to add to Triclopyr, as I've never done it).

Also, I'm a fan of spraying in the evening as opposed to morning. Is there any advantage of evening versus morning sprays in this case?

 

[Green]

0.5% by volume MSO plus a pinch of Ammonium Sulfate?

 

[Greendoc]

Ok, Evening sprayings are fine. I think the reason why I do not torch more lawns than I do is that I spray last thing in the afternoon and the irrigation system comes on next morning. If a lawn is on rain only, I would be super careful. Triclopyr starts to work at 2 teaspoons of the 4 lb ester. NIS is where I would go with the surfactant and AS is good as well. What you want is to completely cover without soaking or exceeding the amount per acre equivalent. For spot spraying that is 1-2 teaspoon in a gallon. Weeds become very hard to kill when the spray applications volume is only 32-48 oz of spray per 1000 sq ft indeed. With good coverage and some surfactant, hard to kill become an easy target. 32-48 oz is widely scattered drops on a 1000 sq ft area.

 

[Delmarva Keith]

I agree with @Greendoc on NIS in triclopyr for clover. I've tested COC and NIS. The NIS is more effective.

Haven't tried adding ammonium sulfate. With the NIS, haven't needed to. I guess I'll try that next round.

Have not seen any hardening off of clover but if it's droughty then systemic herbicides won't work as well. If you're not irrigated, spray the day after a decent rain.

My spot spray rate is 5 gal per 1,000 (seems like a lot but I can usually spot spray about an acre of what breaks through with just a gallon) using a TP4002E nozzle. I've got some TP4001E nozzles on order to get the gallonage down to something more reasonable but they haven't come in yet.

 

[g-man]

I've done the tryclopyr, AS and NIS in spot spraying. It smokes the clover in no time, but it could cause some tip damage to the surrounding lawn. Hence why I dont recommend it too. It needs a very light coating.

 

[Green]

@Greendoc, without doing a weight-volume calculation, how does the 4lb ester you mentioned stack up to the 9% Triclopyr I have as far as concentrations go?

I've never added the ammonium sulfate before, but the point is to help get the triclopyr translocated during a time when the clover isn't pulling as much from the soil due to the heat, correct? I sometimes didn't have good results without it...but my water volume could have been an issue too.

 

[Greendoc]

@Green You using the Ortho Clover and Chickweed Killer? I would mix that at half the label rate and add the AS and surfactant. That is Triclopyr amine. It definitely needs the additives. Amines by nature are very reluctant to enter plant tissues and are subject to interference by impurities in the water.

 

[Greendoc]

I agree with @Greendoc on NIS in triclopyr for clover. I've tested COC and NIS. The NIS is more effective.

Haven't tried adding ammonium sulfate. With the NIS, haven't needed to. I guess I'll try that next round.

Have not seen any hardening off of clover but if it's droughty then systemic herbicides won't work as well. If you're not irrigated, spray the day after a decent rain.

My spot spray rate is 5 gal per 1,000 (seems like a lot but I can usually spot spray about an acre of what breaks through with just a gallon) using a TP4002E nozzle. I've got some TP4001E nozzles on order to get the gallonage down to something more reasonable but they haven't come in yet.

5 gallons per 1000 sq ft is a more honest volume for spot spraying from a hand sprayer. Friend of mine did a little experiment spraying a gravel area with water from a manual sprayer. He got 4 +gallons. Not the 32 oz per 1000 sq ft people who I will not mention claim one can do.

 

[Green]

5 gallons per 1000 sq ft is a more honest volume for spot spraying from a hand sprayer. Friend of mine did a little experiment spraying a gravel area with water from a manual sprayer. He got 4 +gallons. Not the 32 oz per 1000 sq ft people who I will not mention claim one can do.

Wow...5 gallons to get a good response. I've always used about a gallon per thousand. Sometimes less. So, that might have been the main issue.

I guess I should mix at 1/5 the normal concentration, and spot spray for 5x as long as I normally do. Only issue with that is it's going to run off the clover and possibly damage the grass. I suppose I could hit it 5 times with the sprayer, letting it dry in between each time.

 

[Green]

@Green You using the Ortho Clover and Chickweed Killer? I would mix that at half the label rate and add the AS and surfactant. That is Triclopyr amine. It definitely needs the additives. Amines by nature are very reluctant to enter plant tissues and are subject to interference by impurities in the water.

Just saw this. Shoot. You're right...it's an amine. Why would they do that? Just so you can get away with spraying in a slightly higher temperature?

 

[Greendoc]

Lets roll back. 1/5 concentration, use a surfactant and spray to cover but not run off. My point is that trying to spot spray by mixing what is used to cover 1000 sq ft in a gallon is risking a 4-5 x overdose. Cool season grasses are fairly tolerant of this if the overdose is with broadleaf herbicide. Do this to warm season grasses with the exception of Zoysia and it risks substantial injury.

 

[Greendoc]

@Green You using the Ortho Clover and Chickweed Killer? I would mix that at half the label rate and add the AS and surfactant. That is Triclopyr amine. It definitely needs the additives. Amines by nature are very reluctant to enter plant tissues and are subject to interference by impurities in the water.

Just saw this. Shoot. You're right...it's an amine. Why would they do that? Just so you can get away with spraying in a slightly higher temperature?

Because Esters in the hands of people who do not understand the interaction between weather conditions and vaporization is risky. You do not want to spray an Ester on a hot, humid, still day. That Ester will turn into a vapor and fumigate every tree, shrub or flower nearby.

 

[Green]

Because Esters in the hands of people who do not understand the interaction between weather conditions and vaporization is risky. You do not want to spray an Ester on a hot, humid, still day. That Ester will turn into a vapor and fumigate every tree, shrub or flower nearby.

That makes sense from what I learned in organic chemistry.

Ok, for the amine formula I have, what ratio range of ammonium sulfate should I use? I have a cheap electronic scale that can measure mass in fractions of grams or fractions of ounces.

Also, do you feel that anyone serious about lawncare should also have the ester formulation for use in cooler weather and learn all the guidelines for its use, or is it just as good to keep buying only the amine and use the ammonium sulfate and nonionic surfactant with it? I ask because I always had trouble killing creeping Charlie in the Fall with the amine, even with 3 sprays 10-14 days apart. Never got a full kill. Even repeating for 3 or more years straight. (Of course, I suppose that could have also been a spray volume issue, as we already discussed).

 

[Green]

Lets roll back. 1/5 concentration, use a surfactant and spray to cover but not run off. My point is that trying to spot spray by mixing what is used to cover 1000 sq ft in a gallon is risking a 4-5 x overdose. Cool season grasses are fairly tolerant of this if the overdose is with broadleaf herbicide. Do this to warm season grasses with the exception of Zoysia and it risks substantial injury.

Ok, it's all starting to make sense now. I knew I had to be doing something wrong (not optimal) all this time. Now I know what it is. I'm not sure where I got the idea from that I could use a gallon over 1,000 square feet. It's been so long, but it was definitely bad advice, wherever I picked it up from.

Most formally untrained people (without formal spray training or an advanced chemistry degree) probably don't think of it as an overdose, as long as they're using the correct amount of herbicide for the area, and covering it until the plants in the area are wet, and without running out of water.

But the way you've just illustrated it, it IS in fact an overdose if the spray volume is low, because what's hitting the plant is more concentrated than it should be, even though it's the right amount of chemical. Sort of like not drinking enough water, but taking the right amount of an antibiotic.

 

[Greendoc]

To spike the Clover and Chickweed killer you want up to 60 grams per gallon of the AS. That plus some surfactant is as good as it gets.

However, you keep on reading me say put away the Dismiss at this time of the year. I also do not want to see Ester herbicides from now until fall also. I actually use a lot of Ester herbicides here in Hawaii. But I am using them during the time of the year when it is mostly cloudy, under 80, and a bit breezy. At that time, the risk of permeating areas with vaporized herbicide are low. Not enough heat and humidity for the herbicide to vaporize. Enough air movement for the vapors to be dispersed and diluted. I get on broadleaf weeds from November up until April or May here. I have non volatile alternatives that actually work better in hot weather vs cool weather anyway, but my objective is to not be spraying for weeds in hot weather anyway. It might be worth it for you to get a little Triclopyr ester for fall use. That is when it can be safely used to kill hard to control broadleaf weeds.

I am going to use that analogy next time I am explaining water volume to someone. Had to take an Aleve last week for a headache. Box said drink a full glass of water with the pill. You know, a lot of this low volume crap is from the commercial lawn people. They are mostly going after easy to kill broadleaf weeds with high rates of Three Way. One drop on the leaf of a Dandelion with a spray consisting of 1 oz pro strength Three way in a quart of water will kill the Dandelion. It is that susceptible. These same guys then go on the forums talking about nightmare weeds such as Spurge. Small waxy leaves. That is when something like Triclopyr applied to cover but not as an overdose to the area works.

 

[Green]

@Greendoc

Thanks for helping me discover what I'd been doing wrong all this time!

And I'm glad to have given you an analogy to use to help explain it in the future.

 

[Greendoc]

The TLDR version of what I am explaining is to figure the right amount for the area actually being covered. Then apply it in a volume of water with any necessary surfactants and modifiers such that the weeds are evenly coated without runoff.

I can make 1 gallon or even 1/2 gallon cover weeds evenly in a spot spray scenario, but that is not with an off the shelf sprayer. I am using Teejet fan nozzles that are smaller in volume than my normal boom spraying nozzles and the pressure is controlled.

 

[Green]

The TLDR version of what I am explaining is to figure the right amount for the area actually being covered. Then apply it in a volume of water with any necessary surfactants and modifiers such that the weeds are evenly coated without runoff.

I can make 1 gallon or even 1/2 gallon cover weeds evenly in a spot spray scenario, but that is not with an off the shelf sprayer. I am using Teejet fan nozzles that are smaller in volume than my normal boom spraying nozzles and the pressure is controlled.

Ok. Good to know.

For reference, I'm currently using the default Chapin red flat fan nozzle attached to their 3-gallon handheld pro sprayer, and 4-gallon 20V backpack (which I've only had a short time), but will be looking into other options in the near future. I'm also looking into ways to reduce the pressure on the backpack sprayer safely, and posted a thread on that topic a few weeks ago. It got some good replies; I need to sift through everything, as well as contact Chapin to ask some questions.

 

[Greendoc]

Red nozzles are the 04 sized orifices. At 40 psi and a fast walk that is a gallon per 1000 sq ft. If I want to slow it down, that calls for yellow 02 nozzles to stay at a gallon per 1000 sq ft. If I do not want to have to change the orifices, I plan on putting down 2 gallons per 1000 sq ft moving slowly.

 

[Green]

Red nozzles are the 04 sized orifices. At 40 psi and a fast walk that is a gallon per 1000 sq ft. If I want to slow it down, that calls for yellow 02 nozzles to stay at a gallon per 1000 sq ft. If I do not want to have to change the orifices, I plan on putting down 2 gallons per 1000 sq ft moving slowly.

Assuming you mean the Tee-jet, not my red Chapin nozzle.

Speaking of which...maybe that's the real reason I've been doing a gallon and a quarter of water per thousand square feet all this time...because I found that it ran out in the correct time with an average walking speed. Makes sense. But something still isn't right...must be the droplet size, since that's the only other variable. (Ok, there are other variables, too, like how I'm holding the wand, but I doubt those are the issues).