[HungrySoutherner]

@HungrySoutherner I agree that auto mowing will become a larger segment. The only downside I see for most homeowners is they own dogs. As I look around my neighborhood I would say it is at least 50%. Most do not like to clean their dogs "poop" . They would just rather have their lawn service mow over it.

Disclaimer: I do not own a dog........but I do have a few neighbors who think my lawn is their dogs lawn.

I really like the concept of the 430X.

We have 2 dogs, we do our best to keep the dog poop picked up so the mower doesn't run it over but it happens. Same if you run over dog poop with a rotary wheel. It doesn't really effect the blades, I've never found it smeared on the cutting disc or underside just the wheels. If it happens I just take the hose and spray off the wheel and let it move on. It's really not that big of a deal, a lot of owners don't even do that because it will eventually just dry up and fall of the wheel since it mows all the time. I guess better said is it doesn't bother the mower, the average automower user may only check and clean the mower of grass and stuff 1 time a month or longer to change blades. There are guys in the automower group that rarely if ever check the mower and it will be cutting with nubs for blades. It's more robust than you think.

 

[Deadlawn]

We have 2 dogs, we do our best to keep the dog poop picked up so the mower doesn't run it over but it happens.

I had the unfortunate experience of chopping up a dog poop with the blade once. The stench was unbelievable and you should've seen the swarm of flies around the mower afterwards.

 

[Deltahedge]

I hadnever really given automowers much of a thought, but this thread has been eye-opening for me. Thank you @HungrySoutherner for your brief review. I have to mow the ditch in front of my house, and it's way too steep for my zero turn, but it looks like some of these automowers can handle pretty steep hills. I assume its because their center of gravity is slow low to the ground.

A quick search brought me to a brand called Ambrogio, and they have mowers that are built to mow up to up to 5 acres, and can handle 45% slopes!!! (it has a 60 amphour battery). I haven't priced one, and I haven't looked into them very much to see how they compare to the quality of the Husqvarna.

EDIT: To add price information for the Ambrogio model that can mow 5 acres. I've seen is listed at a few places for $16k. The 1.25 acre model costs around $5K.

 

[HungrySoutherner]

We have 2 dogs, we do our best to keep the dog poop picked up so the mower doesn't run it over but it happens.

I had the unfortunate experience of chopping up a dog poop with the blade once. The stench was unbelievable and you should've seen the swarm of flies around the mower afterwards.

You must have been mowing high grass. I haven't experience that yet. Worst case for me is dog poop on the wheels, but then again I've hit dog poop with reel mowers and rotary wheels and its nasty to clean up too.

 

[HungrySoutherner]

I hadnever really given automowers much of a thought, but this thread has been eye-opening for me. Thank you @HungrySoutherner for your brief review. I have to mow the ditch in front of my house, and it's way too steep for my zero turn, but it looks like some of these automowers can handle pretty steep hills. I assume its because their center of gravity is slow low to the ground.

A quick search brought me to a brand called Ambrogio, and they have mowers that are built to mow up to up to 5 acres, and can handle 45% slopes!!! (it has a 60 amphour battery). I haven't priced one, and I haven't looked into them very much to see how they compare to the quality of the Husqvarna.

I don't know much about the Ambrogio but they are supposed to be pretty good. I think they are the Italian brand. The Husqvarna 435x is the 4 wheel drive version of the automower and it can handle what you are talking about as well. Based on my own experience the area that the mower can handle in terms of mowing is extremely subjective because there are so many factors like slopes, terrain, grass type and obstacles. They say the battery life on the 450x that I have is rated for 4.5 hours, but mine will easily mow 7 hours on one charge.

 

[Boy_meets_lawn]

I've got a 315 that I modified to maintain my 419 at 0.5" in my backyard. It works very well and I just hit the edges with the landscape blade after I mow the front yard with the reel.

I recommend using thicker invisible dog fence wire for the boundaries and guide wire. And you can rent a wire trencher from home depot to make burying easy. I have aerated over mine and so far its been fine but I do know where it lies and I try to avoid going directly over it.

I still will mow the back on occasion to cut some stripes but its nice to not be committed to cut to keep it low.

 

[Deltahedge]

Based on my own experience the area that the mower can handle in terms of mowing is extremely subjective because there are so many factors like slopes, terrain, grass type and obstacles. They say the battery life on the 450x that I have is rated for 4.5 hours, but mine will easily mow 7 hours on one charge.

Thanks, that's good info.

 

[Deadlawn]

We have 2 dogs, we do our best to keep the dog poop picked up so the mower doesn't run it over but it happens.

I had the unfortunate experience of chopping up a dog poop with the blade once. The stench was unbelievable and you should've seen the swarm of flies around the mower afterwards.

You must have been mowing high grass. I haven't experience that yet. Worst case for me is dog poop on the wheels, but then again I've hit dog poop with reel mowers and rotary wheels and its nasty to clean up too.

I think it was pretty high. It was during the heat of summer and I am not known for being vigilant about mowing in hot weather, not to mention at that time of year, I always mow at the highest HOC.

The dog poop gave the underside of the mower a new paint job. I didn't want to go near it, I just set it outside and let the flies take care of it.

 

[HungrySoutherner]

I had the unfortunate experience of chopping up a dog poop with the blade once. The stench was unbelievable and you should've seen the swarm of flies around the mower afterwards.

You must have been mowing high grass. I haven't experience that yet. Worst case for me is dog poop on the wheels, but then again I've hit dog poop with reel mowers and rotary wheels and its nasty to clean up too.

I think it was pretty high. It was during the heat of summer and I am not known for being vigilant about mowing in hot weather, not to mention at that time of year, I always mow at the highest HOC.

The dog poop gave the underside of the mower a new paint job. I didn't want to go near it, I just set it outside and let the flies take care of it.

Sounds like the perfect storm scenario.

 

[Still learnin]

I talked to our local dealer. Decent info, not much that hasn't been said here. He did say that typical battery change is every 4-5 years and they're about $150 each. They're apparently designed to be completely serviceable. Worst he has seen in 15 or so years is one that was run over by a vehicle. $1,000 to fix.

I'm not ready to pull the trigger, but close. I'm going to have him come and look over my yard to get an accurate install price. The model I need has to be professionally installed according to the website.

He also recommended that I get 2 because of my square footage. Definitely not ready for that. I'll just use my zero turn for the area it can't cover. He mentioned a homeowner in my area that has 3 setup.

 

[HungrySoutherner]

I talked to our local dealer. Decent info, not much that hasn't been said here. He did say that typical battery change is every 4-5 years and they're about $150 each. They're apparently designed to be completely serviceable. Worst he has seen in 15 or so years is one that was run over by a vehicle. $1,000 to fix.

I'm not ready to pull the trigger, but close. I'm going to have him come and look over my yard to get an accurate install price. The model I need has to be professionally installed according to the website.

He also recommended that I get 2 because of my square footage. Definitely not ready for that. I'll just use my zero turn for the area it can't cover. He mentioned a homeowner in my area that has 3 setup.

None of them require pro installation, that is totally up to you. They will sell you the mower and supplies you need to install it yourself if you want to save on installation. My dealer includes installation in the base price of the 450x and 435x model. Depending on the route you go and what the dealer is going to charge for the install you may be able to save a chunk of change doing it yourself, its not hard. In my case I laid out the boundary wire on top of the ground used the stakes to keep it in place and started running the mower so I could get an idea for the optimal placement of the boundary, made adjustments and then used a stick edger as deep as it would go to make a trench and pushed the wire in and called it a day. Rental shops and HD will rent the wire machines for pretty cheap to also bury the wire that way as well. The down side to letting the dealer do the install is they are going to make guesses about how and where to place the wire, make a few marks and will use the machine to bury it immediately, if you aren't happy with how the mower is responding to the placement after the fact you will have to dig it up and move it. Just some thoughts and options.

 

[Still learnin]

@HungrySoutherner , yeah when I was talking to him I remembered you had said you placed the wires temporarily to see how the mower responded. The dealer mentioned people making improvements to their yard (ie, grass level or above driveways) so the mower reaches more areas. Figured when I have him come out, I'd really get into the weeds regarding install. I don't see it being a huge pain, just time consuming. Can you let it just bump into items like metal edging? If not, that will require a good deal but more of wire.

 

[HungrySoutherner]

@HungrySoutherner , yeah when I was talking to him I remembered you had said you placed the wires temporarily to see how the mower responded. The dealer mentioned people making improvements to their yard (ie, grass level or above driveways) so the mower reaches more areas. Figured when I have him come out, I'd really get into the weeds regarding install. I don't see it being a huge pain, just time consuming. Can you let it just bump into items like metal edging? If not, that will require a good deal but more of wire.

Yeah the mower can handle bumping into things no problem. I think ideally you wouldn't want to rely on that but in my case I want it mowing as close to the fence as possible so I have the wire buried near the fence and it just barely touches the fence when the wire is detected and it turns around.

 

[TheSwede]

I'm actually a bit disappointed the evolution has been so slow with these things. As it happens, I was part of the team that developed the Gen 2 Automower (think it was introduced in 2003). And frankly, development has been excruciatingly slow since, IMHO.

Back then, there where severe limitations to the battery technology available compared with today (the first one they did, the "turtle mower", was actually fully solar powered, which was pretty rad in 1995!), and the random pattern was a consequence of the lack of positioning technology and the very limited system resources of the on board CPU. I remember we spent an awful lot of time on trying to come up with, and optimize algoritms on how the mower would realize it was in trouble (stuck, in a tight spot, etc.) but there was just so much you could do with the limited sensor technology available for the price point they where aiming for.

Personally, I think that's where the Husqvarna mowers excel -when other mowers give up and just stop, Husqvarna mowers are way better in escaping those situations, IMHO (but I might be a bit biased, I admit ).

The big drawback with random pattern mowing is that it is random, so there's no way to be sure that the mower has actually mowed all parts of the lawn. The more time it has on the lawn mowing, the higher the probability it has covered the lawn. Hence, a random pattern mower needs to be out there for a long time, to be reasonably sure most parts of the lawn has been cut, and if you have a fast growing lawn, it will look a bit "patchy", compared to a OCD-level reel mowed lawn (like mine).

In say 2012(?), Bosch decided they wanted to get a piece of the cake and launched a ultra high tech robotic mower that actually did structured mowing using a GPS and acelerometric navigation. A big leap forward IMHO. It was pricy, but I was really tempted to get one -finally a mower that do structured mows and will be done in no time compared to the random walkers. That was until the reviews where starting to come in...

While the idea of structured mowing was brilliant, execution by Bosch was less than. It had severe quality problems with many reports of random parts literally falling of during operation(!). Bosch did a very smart thing, to remedy their not so great launch though -they equipped the next years' model with a LTE-modem that they payed for in full, so they could relay data on how their mowers where actually used in field, and figure out why the wheels fell of their mowers.

Husqvarna and others followed...a few years later.

Now, fast forward to 2021 and positioning technology is cheap. Real cheap. And accurate. I think Husqvarna nailed it here, except perhaps for the price, but the new line of EPOS enabled mowers do not need any guide wires at all, they can do positioning down to about an inch(!) using GPS in combination with a fix mount GPS reference module positioned in your property.

Will the EPOS enabled Husqvarnas do structured mowing? I don't know, but I sure hope they will, because they are more than capable to!

 

[HungrySoutherner]

I'm actually a bit disappointed the evolution has been so slow with these things. As it happens, I was part of the team that developed the Gen 2 Automower (think it was introduced in 2003). And frankly, development has been excruciatingly slow since, IMHO.

Back then, there where severe limitations to the battery technology available compared with today (the first one they did, the "turtle mower", was actually fully solar powered, which was pretty rad in 1995!), and the random pattern was a consequence of the lack of positioning technology and the very limited system resources of the on board CPU. I remember we spent an awful lot of time on trying to come up with, and optimize algoritms on how the mower would realize it was in trouble (stuck, in a tight spot, etc.) but there was just so much you could do with the limited sensor technology available for the price point they where aiming for.

Personally, I think that's where the Husqvarna mowers excel -when other mowers give up and just stop, Husqvarna mowers are way better in escaping those situations, IMHO (but I might be a bit biased, I admit ).

The big drawback with random pattern mowing is that it is random, so there's no way to be sure that the mower has actually mowed all parts of the lawn. The more time it has on the lawn mowing, the higher the probability it has covered the lawn. Hence, a random pattern mower needs to be out there for a long time, to be reasonably sure most parts of the lawn has been cut, and if you have a fast growing lawn, it will look a bit "patchy", compared to a OCD-level reel mowed lawn (like mine).

In say 2012(?), Bosch decided they wanted to get a piece of the cake and launched a ultra high tech robotic mower that actually did structured mowing using a GPS and acelerometric navigation. A big leap forward IMHO. It was pricy, but I was really tempted to get one -finally a mower that do structured mows and will be done in no time compared to the random walkers. That was until the reviews where starting to come in...

While the idea of structured mowing was brilliant, execution by Bosch was less than. It had severe quality problems with many reports of random parts literally falling of during operation(!). Bosch did a very smart thing, to remedy their not so great launch though -they equipped the next years' model with a LTE-modem that they payed for in full, so they could relay data on how their mowers where actually used in field, and figure out why the wheels fell of their mowers.

Husqvarna and others followed...a few years later.

Now, fast forward to 2021 and positioning technology is cheap. Real cheap. And accurate. I think Husqvarna nailed it here, except perhaps for the price, but the new line of EPOS enabled mowers do not need any guide wires at all, they can do positioning down to about an inch(!) using GPS in combination with a fix mount GPS reference module positioned in your property.

Will the EPOS enabled Husqvarnas do structured mowing? I don't know, but I sure hope they will, because they are more than capable to!

Agreed. The new Husqvarna Ceora will have structured mowing for sports turf and striping, in theory the 550 with epos could do that with a software update but I struggle with if it really makes sense with such a small single cutting head to do that, vs the random cutting and better coverage track in areas to randomly mow places more balanced time wise. Over the last 2 years the random approach has worked great so I haven't seen any problems other than it makes for really dense bermuda grass. The big issue at least here in the states with EPOS for lawns using the GPS boundaries will be satellite occlusion from buildings, trees and neighbors houses that will prevent the RTK GPS system from maintaining a fix for the rover that keeps in precision in the 3cm range. People will need clear sky for the base antenna and the rover will need sky to maintain the fix, there are ways around the base antenna but the robot depending on the yard and surroundings might be an issue. I'd say it will roll out eventually for the lower models but the fall back will still be burial wire boundaries so automowers don't run off down the street or into swimming pools. The tech is evolving fast and will increase speed, with lower prices as more competition and products enter the market and the demand increases as more people adopt these.

 

[TheSwede]

Agreed. The new Husqvarna Ceora will have structured mowing for sports turf and striping, in theory the 550 with epos could do that with a software update but I struggle with if it really makes sense with such a small single cutting head to do that, vs the random cutting and better coverage track in areas to randomly mow places more balanced time wise. Over the last 2 years the random approach has worked great so I haven't seen any problems other than it makes for really dense bermuda grass. The big issue at least here in the states with EPOS for lawns using the GPS boundaries will be satellite occlusion from buildings, trees and neighbors houses that will prevent the RTK GPS system from maintaining a fix for the rover that keeps in precision in the 3cm range. People will need clear sky for the base antenna and the rover will need sky to maintain the fix, there are ways around the base antenna but the robot depending on the yard and surroundings might be an issue. I'd say it will roll out eventually for the lower models but the fall back will still be burial wire boundaries so automowers don't run off down the street or into swimming pools. The tech is evolving fast and will increase speed, with lower prices as more competition and products enter the market and the demand increases as more people adopt these.

Don't get me wrong here, random walk works fantastic. However, when random walk mowing, the mower needs to move a lot longer distance to statistically have a high enough probability of going over every part of the lawn at least once, so the lawn appear to have an even cut. With structured mowing, even with a small diameter cutting unit, it will cover the full lawn in way less time, which means less wear on moving parts and battery. It also means that the mower can maintain a significantly larger lawn, when moving in a structured way.

Me personally, I would totally recommend a robot mower like the Husqvarna for anyone except for the most dedicated reel mowing nerds out there. I have had a lot of mowers during the last 10 years as my lawn addiction got worse, and I have used (and still is using) a Husqvarna for 15+ years now and I would say that a properly maintained Husqvarna Automower (or other decent robotic mower) will outperform even the most meticulously maintained rotary when it comes to lawn appearance. A good reel mower, however, will still outperform a robotic mower, if you cut at lower HOCs (sub inch) and have the time and dedication to mow say twice a week at least.

 

[HungrySoutherner]

Agreed. The new Husqvarna Ceora will have structured mowing for sports turf and striping, in theory the 550 with epos could do that with a software update but I struggle with if it really makes sense with such a small single cutting head to do that, vs the random cutting and better coverage track in areas to randomly mow places more balanced time wise. Over the last 2 years the random approach has worked great so I haven't seen any problems other than it makes for really dense bermuda grass. The big issue at least here in the states with EPOS for lawns using the GPS boundaries will be satellite occlusion from buildings, trees and neighbors houses that will prevent the RTK GPS system from maintaining a fix for the rover that keeps in precision in the 3cm range. People will need clear sky for the base antenna and the rover will need sky to maintain the fix, there are ways around the base antenna but the robot depending on the yard and surroundings might be an issue. I'd say it will roll out eventually for the lower models but the fall back will still be burial wire boundaries so automowers don't run off down the street or into swimming pools. The tech is evolving fast and will increase speed, with lower prices as more competition and products enter the market and the demand increases as more people adopt these.

Don't get me wrong here, random walk works fantastic. However, when random walk mowing, the mower needs to move a lot longer distance to statistically have a high enough probability of going over every part of the lawn at least once, so the lawn appear to have an even cut. With structured mowing, even with a small diameter cutting unit, it will cover the full lawn in way less time, which means less wear on moving parts and battery. It also means that the mower can maintain a significantly larger lawn, when moving in a structured way.

Me personally, I would totally recommend a robot mower like the Husqvarna for anyone except for the most dedicated reel mowing nerds out there. I have had a lot of mowers during the last 10 years as my lawn addiction got worse, and I have used (and still is using) a Husqvarna for 15+ years now and I would say that a properly maintained Husqvarna Automower (or other decent robotic mower) will outperform even the most meticulously maintained rotary when it comes to lawn appearance. A good reel mower, however, will still outperform a robotic mower, if you cut at lower HOCs (sub inch) and have the time and dedication to mow say twice a week at least.

I'm using the fairway kit on my 450x and was previously reel mowing. I can tell you and the university research is showing this as well, my turf quality and density at 10mm was better or equal last season than in previous seasons with reel mowing only. The bermuda honestly was to dense. I agree with what you mean about structured mowing, less time mowing, less wear on the machine. I'm for that if 2 major issues can be sorted out 1) Can it automatically vary the pattern it mows everyday and 2) best case scenario the GPS systems they are using is 2-3cm if it has a perfect fix, the cutting disc is 24cm wide and the machine is even wider so getting the machine to mow overlaps to make sure everything is covered each mow means its really got to mow a lot of passes and very narrow turn arounds. I think it could be worked around but its probably why they aren't doing it with the smaller machines and held that for the big Ceora where the cutting area is so much larger.

 

[CAB]

I'll throw this into the mix. I've been VERY happy with my 430x. It replaced a Toro 3100d.

https://youtu.be/pEUYAdD3hm0

Other notes:

1) Made a custom battery harness (same as an ATX motherboard 4pin power splitter) that allowed me to add a second battery in parallel, that the bootloader/firmware allowed, lessening the C rates (charge and discharge are slower, making it gentler on the chemistry, etc). Hopefully making the packs last many more years. Also the max charge is technically an 80% charge (luckily charges by voltage and not mAH, BUT discharges by mAH not voltage), improving long term health of battery. 430x has one battery pack and a zinc weight (same weight as pack). 450x has two battery packs and higher ground speed, hence the forward facing sonar on the 450x.
2) My 430x has had a rough first year or two. Ran over bricks. Beached itself on Massive roots for months. Fell off curbs. Caught on plastic edging material. Beaten with sticks by the kids. I've had to replace the cutting disk bearing and the front two wheels. Both very easy. Runs like a champ.
3) I saw a few videos of drive motors gearing wearing out. So I disassembled when brand new and put some motorcycle axle grease where the plastic cog teeth are. No issues 2.5y later.
4) Any time you open it up to get at the insides, you have to use a new sealing strip, so get a 10 pack from your dealer if you're a tinkerer. Just a rope like gasket that goes in a channel. This is required to keep water out. Every mower tech has to use a new sealing strip EVERY time per manufacturer, and I agree.
5) neighbors and kids will take pictures and watch it
6) the wall mount bracket is worth it for winter storage.
7) use pet fence surge protectors for perimeter and guide wires. 430x you'll need two, 450x you'll need three. Lightning already fried one surge protector well worth it.
8) bought 1000' spool of the heaviest (reasonable) gauge pet fence wire with very thick insulation, highly recommend. I think it was 12 or 14 gauge. Yellow.
9) easy to open hidden dealer menu by pressing and holding two buttons while at main menu (at mower keypad). This helps with testing all major functionality, such as cutting unit rpm and amperage. Also good for finding wire breaks by looking at the radio/wire dB/strength of perimeter and guide wires.
10) I like to say it's a <$500 mower with ~$2000 firmware.
11) there are two api's. One official and rate limited. And one unofficial that allows faster polling. Both have community built addons for HomeAssistant.
12) main board (dealership) connectivity is a simple USB type B (female printer, etc), but requires dealership software. The older versions' dealer software's logon (user/pw) is easy to get around.

That's all I can think of off the top of my head. The rest is in that video.

 

[nickmg]

Anyone running a Honda Miimo?

 

[Still learnin]

I've decided to go ahead and pull the pin on an automower. Got the quote and told them to order the 450X. Won't be in until next month though. My local dealer only has the XH versions in stock.

One thing he did say is that I didn't want to push the mower to its area limit, especially if I add a fairway kit. Said that the fairway kit uses a lot more battery and it isn't recommended to use the 450X for a full 1.25 acres with a fairway kit.

So I think I'm going to cut as much with it as I can and use the zero turn for the acre left over. Maybe one day get a second one if it is as good as I am hoping. It'll still save me a lot of time I'm thinking.