From my experience don't expect much spread like KBG

 

It's not supposed to spread like KBG or bermuda. You're missing the point. It will repair areas, just not as fast.

 

I have rhizomatous TTTF in a area in my backyard 4 years I haven't seen any areas self repair by themselves I'm actually going to overseed this fall it's getting thin. This is my personal experience of course yours can be different. But I will say it's a low input area all organic I don't push nitrogen so that can be a reason.

 

1. What cultivar of rhizomatous TTTF do you use? I'm using two different cultivars from the top seed companies.

2. Are you using certain herbicides in your lawn? I read certain ones like Tenacity can impact the spread rate.

3. I was told to use a specific fertilizer for my TTTF per one of the seed companies that I use. I am for certain the nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium nutrients play a role in the ability of the grass creating rhizomes underground so it can expand.

4. How can you compare your rhizomatous TTTF seeds from 4 years ago to a cultivar used in 2023? Come on man.

 

1. 4th millennium and firecracker from United seed 2. All organic 3. Farmers almanac organic fertilizer once a season but heavy.4 true I'm sure they come along way

 

RTF does exist, but most will not have meaningful Rhizomes. Some testing (which goes on for many years) indicates it could be 2 years before some show up, and what was found were very short rhizomes (meaning very slow spread to repair). 4th Millenium (and Traverse) is from Turf Merchants. Many vendors resell it. Mountain View Seeds is the other group that produces seeds with lateral spread. Titanium 2-(G)LS, Firecracker, Spyder, Dynamite... all are advertised to be LS. However, the only exceptional spreading (via rhizomes) is Jacklin and Barenbrug seeds.

Jacklin had Flame and JT783 (No-Net).
Barenbrug has BarMesh and BarRepair.

Since Barenbrug bought Jacklin, they tend to have the best RTF - combining BarMesh and Flame in their current RTF product. These are probably 10-year-old cultivars. Newer seed releases might be better in other areas, but I haven't heard of the rhizomes of recent seeds surpassing these (or Barenbrug's Labyrinth sod).

I planted some Barenbrug BarMesh and BarRepair in a 12" pot last year. The middle was killed by disease, but there is plenty of surviving grass around the edges. I am watching if it spreads this year, but I haven't seen it yet (it is too early). I don't have as much faith since, in today's age, I think there would be more YouTube videos of people showing off the RTF rhizomes, but I find it practically non-existent. I also wonder how much RTF survived, as my sample was made of maybe 5 TTTF cultivars.

I have their newer releases of Zion, Bonfire, Flame, and Barmesh. I could run a small test on those, but the results will probably take years.

 

I live 7 hours from Stover Seeds. Their cultivar of RTF is grown in California where I live. Everything that is planted here grows exceptionally well. Especially since my RTF stays green practically all year round. My lawn didn't even go dormant during a "California winter." While the other lawns did.

I am 100% certain my landscaper identified in my lawn what was part of the spreading process for my RTF. I didn't get a picture because his dumbass pulled what looked like a rhizome/stalon. I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to know when something is thriving. I've been in touch with the Stover Seeds turf manager daily and their CEO. Their turf manager tells me exactly what to do for their cultivar to thrive.

 

Rhizomatous TTTF is definitely a real thing. I have found it in my yard but if you are counting on it you will be disappointed.
Edit: I have a good picture but I can’t seem to post it.

 

IME 2 seasons is 2 full growing seasons or 2years like @secured2k stated.

I did a pretty deep dive on these varieties before deciding to add a percentage of higher quality KBG to my mix instead. My understanding is that the lateral spread is a lower growing more uniform (less obvious that it’s a bunch type) fescue that has the potential to establish new roots/growth sites given time but not in the case of regular mowing with commercial equipment.

 

It's definitely NOT 2 years in California. Completely different soil and weather.

 

There is no argument that some RTF varieties grow well. The test results show that it isn't as good as many would be led to believe.

I think I can get you links to the company/manufacturers/trial results, and you can form your conclusions.

Spreader Elite GCI - GCI Turf Spreader Elite Grass Seed – GCI Turf Academy

About:
Flame/No-Net PDF
Jacklin Seeds (Resources/Downloads)


4th Millennium SRP / Turf-Type Tall Fescue / Platinum Quality (stoverseed.com)
PDF Datasheet
General Care/Establishment Instructions from Stover

Turf Merchants Web Site
Turf Merchants PDF on 4th Millennium SRP


Test from Drew Kinder, founder of Kinder Seed / seedsuperstore.com and past president of the American Seed Trade Association.
Does Tall Fescue Spread? | Seeds 4 Thought...Drew Kinder's seed blog (wordpress.com)

NTEP Trials 2014 - 2016, Table 18 - Rhizome counts and the tillering ability of TTTF when they removed 2 plugs over 2 years - Spring and Fall - to see if the TTTF spread into the holes, making the hole smaller.
tf12_18-13f.pdf (ntep.org) Pages 107-109.

Looking through the data in detail, you can find that even varieties with many rhizomes did not substantially decrease the hole sizes. This goes to what many find - there are rhizomes, but they don't spread far enough to repair large areas in a reasonable time. At best, it can handle small divots or spread enough not to seem as bunchy.


Finally, you can search Google, YouTube, or this forum and find the same consensus from various people from their questions or personal first-hand multi-year experiences.

 

The OP is banned (for good reason) So this info is for anyone reading in the future. My real time findings match what secured2k pulled in the data above. I put down GCI’s spreader elite 2 or 3 years ago now (probably 2.5 years since it was fall and it’s currently spring). I feed conventionally (moderate spring, heavy fall) and have noticed no spread. I had to overseed this past fall with more TTTF.

 

But since you don't live in his actual yard and you aren't the ceo of the company I guess your experience doesn't count. 😂 He contacted God Himself (the original Creator of grass) and got confirmation of rhizomes and stolons and lateral spread in 2 highly specialized local seasons. 😂 A tablet of fertilizing instructions was formed in the heavens and lowered to earth for his personal use. This is undisputed fact.

Ok I'll stop. 😂

I have some of the different "spreading" cultivars in my TTTF mix (Super Turf 1) and maybe someday they'll spread. In any case, the grass looks really good.

 

That dude belongs on Reddit and twitter. I wish him nothing but Poa Triv and weeds for the future.

I had RTF in my yard from Barenbrug. It didn’t spread much that I noticed in the 2-3 years I was using it. It ended up getting killed off. I still have it on my ROW next to the street. That section should be 3 years old and do notice it hanging over the sidewalk more than my Super Turf 1, but it’s not from KBG type rhizomes. Maybe I will dig a corner up one of these days and look. Could be interesting.

 

I have overseeded my Southern California tall fescue lawn this past fall with 4th Millenium RTF. Lawn is immaculate and beautiful. I recently removed a small section of turf to fix an irrigation elbow and there are zero rhizomes or stolons spreading as of yet. I will keep the class updated as the years tick.

 

But…you live in California…it should be spreading like crazy. (I kid…I’ll stop now. 😂

 

I moved the concrete water direction thingy from under my gutter downspout and it actually filled in with the rhizomatous tttf all within the first season. No joke. I killed my existing lawn and did my renovation grass grew, and through the winter I moved the concrete water thingy from under my downspout and by September it was completely filled in. I had help from the Lord of grass on this one🤣🤣

 

Wow. I have to say that coming from “that other lawn forum” I wasn’t expecting the response from the mods. I’m glad you guys left it up but handled it to your standards. I’ve expressed once or twice to the other forum mods that the content allowed would/could/likely has kept the forum from receiving more publicity.

in the years I studied biochem, environmental tech and the experiences gained managing several acres of residential turf has taught me once thing for sure- right and wrong isn’t something you are for long, science and technology are fluid. Present what you know and examine what you don’t.

 

It only spreads like crazy here in NC.

 

I don't know. That depends. How many hours away from the seed headquarters are you? 🤪

 

2 mins and twenty seconds if I'm on a bike with the head of the landscaping crew. It's next to where the meteorologist lives...

 

“You don’t know what you’re talking about. You’re not close enough to god to be that close. My landscaper knows better.”
-That one ****head probably.