[Deke]

Now I'm confused! Where does protein come into this situation?

 

[Greendoc]

I have always said NPK+Micronutrients+ then various supplements. Steroids, GH, or even creatine do not do much for the human body in absence of sufficient calories and protein. NPK+Micronutrients is your calories and protein. Problem is that a lot of the supplements have been sold as replacements for sufficient levels of NPK and Micronutrients. They have also been sold as cures for fundamental problems with the soil chemistry. Humic and organic matter in soil will not correct extremes in pH, yet they are often sold as remedies for that.

 

[seiyafan]

protein is similar to nitrogen and other minerals.

 

[LEE]

"Muscle growth", in this forum, is easy. Just add more nitrogen and BOOM. But if overall heath is the goal, I'm leaning more towards topdressing with compost once or twice a year. I think this will do WAY more than any humic acid, fulvic acid, micro, silica, yucca, amino acid, B vitamin, etc. supplement could ever do (although good compost will contain most of these nutrients). Much like our guts, if the gut is healthy and fed with good, diverse food sources, we will be healthy.
I'll be dethatching, and topdressing my lawn with compost this weekend to test it out for myself.

 

[WCtotheB]

Creatine on the lawn seems to produce similar results of steroids for grass. It seems it is not cost-effective to apply or implement in one's lawn care. There are studies showing notable creatine effects on plants. The way I learned this is I poured creatine in the lawn in a circle because I found it to not dissolve well in water for me to consume, so I bought better quality creatine for me to consume and just thought randomly to "see if the poorly dissolving creatine had an effect on the lawn; well I have a permanent emerald green ring in my yard where the grass continues to grow the fastest and darkest over the rest of the yard, despite various fert apps and cheated iron as well as FAS. I wonder if one would benefit from adding some creatine to some sprays at a low enough rate to be cost-effective and provide benefit. Random thoughts here and not all that coherent.

 

[tneicna]

Biochemist here.

There are countless studies showing Humic Acid applications (Or organic byproducts, like Seaweed/Kelp) increase root dehydrogenase activity, root growth and weight, physiological health, antioxidant concentrations, visual quality, recovery or tolerance to heat injury, transplant quality, etc on various turfgrass species.

Please see;

Pope, J.; Eichenberg, R.; Birthisel, T. Use of humate dispersible granule technology as a soil amendment in turfgrass and horticultural soils. Appl. Turfgrass Sci. 2013, 10, 38.
Canellas, L.; Olivares, F.; Aguiar, N.; Jones, D.; Nebioso, A.; Mazzei, P.; Piccolo, A. Humic and fulvic acids as biostimulants in horticulture. Sci. Hortic. 2015, 196, 15-27.
Nardi, S.; Pizzeghello, D.; Muscolo, A.; Vianello, A. Physiological effects of humic substances on higher plants. Soil Biol. Biochem. 2002, 34, 1527-1536.
Trevisan, S.; Francioso, O.; Quaggiotti, S.; Nardi, S. Humic substances biological activity at the plant-soil interface. Plant Signal. Behav. 2010, 5, 635-643.
Dorer, S.; Peacock, C. The effects of humate and organic fertilizer on establishment and nutrition of creeping bent putting greens. Int. Turfgrass Soc. Res. J. 1997, 7, 437-443.
Liu, C.; Cooper, R.; Bowman, D. Humic acid application affects photosynthesis, root development, and nutrient content of creeping bentgrass. HortScience 1998, 33, 1023-1025.
Zhang, X.; Schmidt, R. Hormone-containing products' impact on antioxidant status of tall fescue and creeping bentgrass subjected to drought. Crop Sci. 2000, 40, 1344-1349.
Zhang, X.; Ervin, E.; Schmidt, R. Physiological effects of liquid applications of a seaweed extract and a humic acid on creeping bentgrass. J. Am. Soc. Hort. Sci. 2003, 128, 492-496.
Zhang, X.; Schmidt, R.; Ervin, E.; Doak, S. Creeping bentgrass physiological responses to natural plant growth regulators and iron under two regimes. HortScience 2002, 37, 898-902.
Hunter, A.; Anders, A. The influence of humic acid on turfgrass growth and development of creeping bentgrass. Int. Conf. Turfgrass Manag. Sci. Sports Fields 2003, 661, 257-264.
Zhang, X.; Ervin, E. Cytokinin-containing seaweed and humic acid extracts associated with creeping bentgrass leaf cytokinins and drought resistance. Crop Sci. 2004, 44, 1737-1745.
Van ****, A.; Johnson, P.; Grossl, P. Influence of humic acid on water retention and nutrient acquisition in simulated golf putting greens. Soil Use Manag. 2009, 25, 255-261.
Gao, Y.; Li, D. Foliar fertilization by tank-mixing with organic amendment on creeping bentgrass. HortTechnology 2012, 22, 157-163.
Zhang, X.; Ervin, E.; Schmidt, R. Seaweed extract, humic acid, and propiconazole improve tall fescue sod heat tolerance and posttransplant quality. HortScience 2003, 38, 440-443.
Zhang, X.; Schmidt, R. Antioxidant response to hormone-containing product in Kentucky bluegrass subjected to drought. Crop Sci. 1999, 39, 545-551.
Zhang, X.; Ervin, E.; Schmidt, R. Plant growth regulators can enhance the recovery of Kentucky bluegrass sod from heat injury. Crop Sci. 2003, 43, 952-956.
Ervin, E.; Roberts, J. Improving root development with foliar humic acid applications during Kentucky bluegrass sod establishment on sand. Int. Conf. Turfgrass Sci. Manag. Sports Fields 2007, 783, 317-322.
Zhu, H.; Li, D. Using humus on golf course fairways to alleviate soil salinity problems. HortTechnology 2018, 28, 284-288.
Lindsey, A.; Thoms, A.; Christians, N. Kentucky bluegrass and bermudagrass rooting response to humic fertilizers during greenhouse establishment. Agron. J. 2020, 112, 3396-3401.
Nikbakht, A.; Pessarakli, M.; Daneshvar-Hakimi-Maibodi, N.; Kafi, M. Perennial ryegrass growth responses to mycorrhizal infection and humic acid treatments. Agron. J. 2014, 106, 585-595.
Daneshvar-Hakimi-Maibodi, N.; Kafi, M.; Nikbakht, A.; Rejali, F. Effect of foliar applications of humic acid on growth, visual quality, nutrients content and root parameters of perennial ryegrass (Lolium perenne L.). J. Plant Nutr. 2015, 38, 224-236.

 

[Darth_V8r]

Non-biochemist here. Just a lowly chemical engineer. I ran humic every month last year. Initially i thought I saw improvement to the turf and was really excited. Definitely saw an increase in earthworms and mushrooms. (non-Psychedelic). However, the grass was still very disease prone come autumn. But I did see that areas of my yard that were hard clay became much easier to dig in, and the areas that were very sandy kind of bound together.

My layman's understanding is that soil is dirt plus biological activity.

Overall, I would say my observations lined up with GreenDoc's explanation - where the soil in my yard was really just dirt, the humic seemed to make a difference. Where the dirt in my yard was already pretty good soil, I got a lot of mushrooms.

 

[Deltahedge]

I haven't put humic on my lawn, so I don't have any input on that. All the research I've seen on creatine supplementation is agreed and there's pretty much consensus that creatine provides improvement and most people would benefit from creatine supplements.

So, is the following statement true or false?
Humic = scientifically researched and consensus agrees most people, lawns in this case, will benefit from supplementing?

 

[HungrySoutherner]

Rocket scientist here. I think you should consider reading through these studies and examining the results. They all are basically inconclusive. The conditions for which the impact humic amendments or things like sea kelp are so constrained relative to everything else if you read into the conclusions you will quickly start to realize that just trying to figure out how to apply at the correct dose is complicated. Plus the results are so confounded by the noise in the data relative to the conditions that need to exist to actual replicate those results the likelihood a homeowner is going to be in that condition is almost null and void compared to the basics of water, sun light, correct NPK and Ph correction and other cultural practices. In the grand scheme of things its just not valuable. They've only returned in vogue with liquids and granular products as marketing gimmicks. It won't hurt to apply them but the original post is right, based on the cost vs any "potential" results its just money down the drain.

Biochemist here.

There are countless studies showing Humic Acid applications (Or organic byproducts, like Seaweed/Kelp) increase root dehydrogenase activity, root growth and weight, physiological health, antioxidant concentrations, visual quality, recovery or tolerance to heat injury, transplant quality, etc on various turfgrass species.

Please see;

Pope, J.; Eichenberg, R.; Birthisel, T. Use of humate dispersible granule technology as a soil amendment in turfgrass and horticultural soils. Appl. Turfgrass Sci. 2013, 10, 38.
Canellas, L.; Olivares, F.; Aguiar, N.; Jones, D.; Nebioso, A.; Mazzei, P.; Piccolo, A. Humic and fulvic acids as biostimulants in horticulture. Sci. Hortic. 2015, 196, 15-27.
Nardi, S.; Pizzeghello, D.; Muscolo, A.; Vianello, A. Physiological effects of humic substances on higher plants. Soil Biol. Biochem. 2002, 34, 1527-1536.
Trevisan, S.; Francioso, O.; Quaggiotti, S.; Nardi, S. Humic substances biological activity at the plant-soil interface. Plant Signal. Behav. 2010, 5, 635-643.
Dorer, S.; Peacock, C. The effects of humate and organic fertilizer on establishment and nutrition of creeping bent putting greens. Int. Turfgrass Soc. Res. J. 1997, 7, 437-443.
Liu, C.; Cooper, R.; Bowman, D. Humic acid application affects photosynthesis, root development, and nutrient content of creeping bentgrass. HortScience 1998, 33, 1023-1025.
Zhang, X.; Schmidt, R. Hormone-containing products' impact on antioxidant status of tall fescue and creeping bentgrass subjected to drought. Crop Sci. 2000, 40, 1344-1349.
Zhang, X.; Ervin, E.; Schmidt, R. Physiological effects of liquid applications of a seaweed extract and a humic acid on creeping bentgrass. J. Am. Soc. Hort. Sci. 2003, 128, 492-496.
Zhang, X.; Schmidt, R.; Ervin, E.; Doak, S. Creeping bentgrass physiological responses to natural plant growth regulators and iron under two regimes. HortScience 2002, 37, 898-902.
Hunter, A.; Anders, A. The influence of humic acid on turfgrass growth and development of creeping bentgrass. Int. Conf. Turfgrass Manag. Sci. Sports Fields 2003, 661, 257-264.
Zhang, X.; Ervin, E. Cytokinin-containing seaweed and humic acid extracts associated with creeping bentgrass leaf cytokinins and drought resistance. Crop Sci. 2004, 44, 1737-1745.
Van ****, A.; Johnson, P.; Grossl, P. Influence of humic acid on water retention and nutrient acquisition in simulated golf putting greens. Soil Use Manag. 2009, 25, 255-261.
Gao, Y.; Li, D. Foliar fertilization by tank-mixing with organic amendment on creeping bentgrass. HortTechnology 2012, 22, 157-163.
Zhang, X.; Ervin, E.; Schmidt, R. Seaweed extract, humic acid, and propiconazole improve tall fescue sod heat tolerance and posttransplant quality. HortScience 2003, 38, 440-443.
Zhang, X.; Schmidt, R. Antioxidant response to hormone-containing product in Kentucky bluegrass subjected to drought. Crop Sci. 1999, 39, 545-551.
Zhang, X.; Ervin, E.; Schmidt, R. Plant growth regulators can enhance the recovery of Kentucky bluegrass sod from heat injury. Crop Sci. 2003, 43, 952-956.
Ervin, E.; Roberts, J. Improving root development with foliar humic acid applications during Kentucky bluegrass sod establishment on sand. Int. Conf. Turfgrass Sci. Manag. Sports Fields 2007, 783, 317-322.
Zhu, H.; Li, D. Using humus on golf course fairways to alleviate soil salinity problems. HortTechnology 2018, 28, 284-288.
Lindsey, A.; Thoms, A.; Christians, N. Kentucky bluegrass and bermudagrass rooting response to humic fertilizers during greenhouse establishment. Agron. J. 2020, 112, 3396-3401.
Nikbakht, A.; Pessarakli, M.; Daneshvar-Hakimi-Maibodi, N.; Kafi, M. Perennial ryegrass growth responses to mycorrhizal infection and humic acid treatments. Agron. J. 2014, 106, 585-595.
Daneshvar-Hakimi-Maibodi, N.; Kafi, M.; Nikbakht, A.; Rejali, F. Effect of foliar applications of humic acid on growth, visual quality, nutrients content and root parameters of perennial ryegrass (Lolium perenne L.). J. Plant Nutr. 2015, 38, 224-236.

 

[Deltahedge]

Rocket scientist here. I think you should consider reading through these studies and examining the results. They all are basically inconclusive. The conditions for which the impact humic amendments or things like sea kelp are so constrained relative to everything else if you read into the conclusions you will quickly start to realize that just trying to figure out how to apply at the correct dose is complicated. Plus the results are so confounded by the noise in the data relative to the conditions that need to exist to actual replicate those results the likelihood a homeowner is going to be in that condition is almost null and void compared to the basics of water, sun light, correct NPK and Ph correction and other cultural practices. In the grand scheme of things its just not valuable. They've only returned in vogue with liquids and granular products as marketing gimmicks. It won't hurt to apply them but the original post is right, based on the cost vs any "potential" results its just money down the drain.

So based on this, I'm going to take your word and say the tests on Humic are inconclusive, and there isn't broad consensus on if it helps or at what dose or how to use it. Which then tells me that Humic isn't the creatine of bodybuilding.

 

[johnklein25]

This is an interesting thread for sure. I'm a sucker for analogies, so I had to read this one. My soil is pretty awful in several places and needs all the help it can get. I think the fert products that contain Humic AND Nitrogen are probably worth the $$$. Humic only doesn't seem to do much good. I am seeing evidence that granular hydretain is helping.... this is probably a far better supplement than just Humic, or liquid aeration in my opinion. I did a lot of reading about Hydretain, but no mention anywhere of the granular version smelling like success, it nearly knocked me out when I opened the bag! That stuff makes Milorganite seem mild!

 

[sheepfescue]

To play the analogy game...

So, the traditional theory/methodology with creatine (and the traditional form was creatine monohydrate, and i think this remains the "most tested" form) was all about loading up with supplemental creatine at a level much greater than that which could be gained from food (most meats contain creatine, as well as some odd vegetables). Much like some other performance-enhancing substances, it's all about amounts.

Creatine acts as a phosphate buffer in your muscle cells, and allows ATP to be regenerated from ADP under anaerobic conditions when glycolytic processes run out of fuel (ATP is required for all things biological, including powering contraction of muscle filaments; basically, conversion of ATP to ADP creates energy)... which is to say, what more creatine in your muscles would do is allow for you to crank out a few more reps during weight lifting. In reality, muscles are never completely under anaerobic or aerobic metabolism (setting unusual and dangerous extremes aside), so supplemental creatine does also have some benefits for any type of exercise, though for aerobic exercise it is comparatively negligible... and creatine is not just in your muscle cells (another poster mentioned it may have shown other benefits).

Back to lawncare...

So, with this thread's analogy, perhaps.... does EXTRA humic acid in the soil serve a beneficial or performance enhancing role in some way?

Maybe if the color of your soil is not dark brown, it is relatively deficient in humic acid? Apparently (I read somewhere once) that humic acid (and related substances) are what make soils that dark brown color.

And a stupid comment: plants need phosphate for the same reason humans need phosphate. i wonder if creatine ethyl ester applied foliarly could help plants retain more phosphate... and, I wonder if granular creatine would make a good fertilizer because it is rich in nitrogen (it would probably be cost-prohibitive to apply granular creatine given the amount required and that substance's pricing).

Having said all that, there is definitely a culture of excess that spills over into lawn care (and exists in every consumer product space in our society)... just like there are thousands of bodybuilding supplements to take, there are a plethora of lawncare products (and types of products) and if they were all used simultaneously then your lawn would probably turn into a hazardous waste exclusion zone.

 

[tneicna]

Rocket scientist here. I think you should consider reading through these studies and examining the results. They all are basically inconclusive. The conditions for which the impact humic amendments or things like sea kelp are so constrained relative to everything else if you read into the conclusions you will quickly start to realize that just trying to figure out how to apply at the correct dose is complicated. Plus the results are so confounded by the noise in the data relative to the conditions that need to exist to actual replicate those results the likelihood a homeowner is going to be in that condition is almost null and void compared to the basics of water, sun light, correct NPK and Ph correction and other cultural practices. In the grand scheme of things its just not valuable. They've only returned in vogue with liquids and granular products as marketing gimmicks. It won't hurt to apply them but the original post is right, based on the cost vs any "potential" results its just money down the drain.

I have - there are RCTs, field observations, etc.

Even Lindsey et al (2021) noted the following;

"Earlier research has explored the benefits of humic substances on turfgrass. Applications of humic products on creeping bentgrass (Agrostis stolonifera L.) increased root dehydrogenase activity, root growth and weight, physiological health, antioxidant concentrations, turf quality, germination rate, and percent cover [31,32,33,34,35,36,37,38,39]. Humic substances improved antioxidant concentrations, recovery or tolerance to heat injury, transplant quality, and root weight of tall fescue [Schedonorus arundinaceus (Schreb.) Dumort.; syn. Festuca arundinacea Scherb.] [33,40]. Kentucky bluegrass heat injury recovery or tolerance, root mass, root strength, root growth and turf quality was enhanced by application of humic substances [41,42,43,44,45]. Humic substances applied to perennial ryegrass (Lolium perenne L.) improved root length and surface area, root architecture, and visual quality [46,47]. The numerous benefits of humic substances on turfgrass suggest that improved stress tolerance could be possible."

There's a few studies showing Humic acid (and byproducts) downregulate antioxidant defence in turfgrasses like KBG etc (SOD2, GSH) making them more heat tolerant and others.

Sure, it can be argued that the application rate has a lot to do with the effects, and be more specific to certain products.

 

[Deltahedge]

"Is humic acid the "pre-workout drink" of the body building world?" is a better question

 

[SCGrassMan]

I mixed 200mg of testosterone into a gallon of water and did 1000 sq ft
I mixed 1000mg of creatine into a gallon of water and did 1000 sq ft
I mixed 200 mg of test + 1000 mg of creatine into a gallon of water and did 1000 sq ft

I'll post results next week as to which 1000 sq ft looks best

 

[doverosx]

I'm always skeptical about everything. I was reading up on humic acid more for applying to the lawn and I'm really doubting it's benefits versus just good cultural practices such as:

1: Mowing often enough
2. Watering when rain is not in the forecast
3. Mulching clippings and leaves to provide good organic matter to the soil
4. Ensuring your lawn is getting enough fertilizer for your type of grass
5. Using a pre-emergent herbicide to prevent weeds to thicken the grass so it can prevent weeds naturally

Humic acid is already naturally occurring in the soil.

http://extension.missouri.edu/scott/documents/Ag/Agronomy/Beware-snakeoil-fertilizers.pdf

"Other products, including humic acids that are supposed to change soil chemistry and improve nutrient uptake are equally unimpressive. "Humic acid occurs naturally in the soil," he said. A three-year study on four crops showed "no economic response."

It's similar to the hype around creatine. Your body naturally produces it and if you are eating a normal diet you are getting it that way too. The bodybuilder in the magazine is big and strong for every reason other than creatine. They use some "chemical help" to get big but not creatine.

If humic acid was so good and useful wouldn't all farmers be using it? Look at the link I posted above and the quoted paragraph. "A three-year study on four crops showed 'no economic response'"

There is no hype over creatine, the science is done; creatine monohydrate is performance enhancing.

 

[DeepC]

I mixed 200mg of testosterone into a gallon of water and did 1000 sq ft
I mixed 1000mg of creatine into a gallon of water and did 1000 sq ft
I mixed 200 mg of test + 1000 mg of creatine into a gallon of water and did 1000 sq ft

I'll post results next week as to which 1000 sq ft looks best

Did you ever end up doing this, or was that a joke?

 

[MikeConroy]

I'm gonna spray 1 gallon of Red Bull per M and see what happens.

I'm not too sure I'm ready to climb aboard the humic acid bandwagon. If you're diving that deep down the rabbit hole for the turf response you may or may not get, one should have their water, nutrients and fungicides "perfectly" dialed in, which I don't think is even possible. If humic makes roots longer, but you shallow water/or mother nature shallow waters, you are defeating the purpose. If you are going for visual, but you apply a DMI fungicide or a herbicide, they each have a very small effect on your turf quality as well. How much water can humic save by its drought tolerance abilities? If I have irrigation, do I need humic? If it increases CEC, how much can I save in nutrients that it held onto for me? Does the cost of nutrients saved outweigh the cost of the humic acid? Using the same analogy of the bodybuilder, he/she can take all the creatine they want, but if they don't eat and drink to a very meticulous diet, they will never see its benefits.

 

[NJlawnguy]

So how many grams (or pounds?) of creatine per 1k sq ft and does it need to be watered in immediately? Sheesh