[phil]

Hi everyone! I just found this forum a few weeks ago and signed up to be a member the other day. Great resource!

I'm in upstate New York right outside Albany and this last December 2016 purchased a beautiful new home with just under an acre of property and 20,000 square feet of lawn. The previous owner did little more than mow, and my neighbor naturally has just about the most perfect lawn you've ever seen.

Suffice it to say that I've been working diligently on getting the lawn beautiful, thick, healthy, and resilient to kids playing outside. I applied my early spring pre-emergent, applied twice the bag rate of Milorganite on Memorial Day and July 4th along with a starter in late April.

It was amazing to see everything really green up and thicken up in May! My neighbors noticed and commented how it was so much better than the previous year. However, that's an opinion based on seeing it from the street or driveway

When I walked the lawn I noticed tremendous amounts of clover and creeping charlie. After some research I decided that rather than leave it for this year and make sure to put something down earlier for next season, I'd wipe it out with a healthy dose of Triclopyr. In about 3 days (one application) the clover and creeping charlie were yellow, and in about 10/12 days they were literally just gone. As you can imagine, though, I was left with a lot of very thin and completely bare areas.

I vigorously raked the areas, reseeded, topdressed with peat moss and watered regularly. The areas filled in great, and the rest of the lawn continued to thrive, but now I have multicolor patches all over my lawn! And now, after a couple months, I'm noticing that the new patches are thinning right out. I used Scott's EZ-Seed (will never do that again), and Scott's Turf Builder with the blue coating. I think I also used a bag of Vigoro seed as well which is straight Perrenial Rye and not a blend.

I guess I need to know 1) how can I fix the multiple colors, 2) what grass type or blend should I be using in my area, and 3) how do I prevent the new patches that are only a couple months old from thinning out?

This is great forum, and I'm really glad to be able to participate!

Below are some pics

Thanks,

Phil

 

[LIgrass]

Welcome to the forum.

Fixing a multiple-colored lawn is impossible to do barring a full renovation. You can't selectively kill lighter colored cool season grasses without killing everything. To thicken up thin patches you could do an aggressive fall fertilizer program and/or overseed the patches. It looks like you've got quite a bit of shade there so I'd stay away from Perennial ryegrass. PRG hates shade. You're better off with Tall Fescue, or fine fescue (not a fan), or KBG (something like Bewitched would do well). How much direct (and dappled) sun does most of the lawn get?

 

[phil]

@LIgrass That's good advice. I was actually thinking to overseed with PRG, so maybe I'll have to rethink that. The front yard shown in the pics gets full sun for only a few hours in the afternoon from say 1-4. Otherwise it's just filtered sun through lots of trees. So since the lawn is pretty healthy otherwise, I should probably just aerate and overseed this fall to even out the grass type - right? Eventually a few of those large trees will come down when I can afford it, but honestly it will probably take years to get all of them. Why aren't you a fan of fine fescue?

 

[GrassDaddy]

I agree with the above statements. If you continue your practices the lawn will thicken some more but I would overseed some TTTF in there this year. With that many trees and shade you might want to do it earlier than later. It depends on how hot the lawn still gets and your watering situation, but with less sunlight it will take longer to germinate/mature, and then with fall leaves falling it makes it harder to seed (not impossible though), but the bonus is the shade will keep the new grass from drying out so fast.

As for fine fescue I find that it falls over far too easily. And then once it does it's hard to get it to stand up straight again.

 

[phil]

Thanks guys. I'm planning to aerate and reseed this early September as summer fades and the temps stay in 70s and even 60s. I'd really like to keep the soft feel and dark green color, and after reading a ton about TTTF last night after @LIgrass's post it looks like you guys are right. I'm really bummed about all the new patches thinning out so much, but when I seeded I really didn't know what I was doing.

I read that TTTF needs to be reseeded every fall or early spring because it doesn't stand up well to the cold. We get miserable winters in my area - does that sound correct? I can make reseeding part of my fall routine, but it sorta stinks to have to add that additional cost.

Since we have such harsh winters here, would it make more sense to reseed in the spring? I really wanted to get seed down when I aerated this fall. My only concern with that is the pre-emergent application next April. I saw that the type that's safe to use with new grass is really expensive, but if that's a better option then that's ok.

As far as watering, I have two faucets outside with great water pressure so I set up traditional sprinklers twice a week to get an inch down every seven days, At first I totally overdid it and saw mushrooms and other fungus develop in some areas. I'm scaling back on that and sticking to 1/2 an inch twice a week unless it rains. I've found that doing much more really does nothing but grow mushrooms.

I wish I could better identify grass types because my neighbor on one side has an absolutely perfect lawn with great color and is also in a lot of shade (he pays for a service). The leaves look a little heartier and darker than mine so I was wondering if it was either a different grass type or just healthier. I'll sneak over and take some pics.

Thanks guys!

 

[phil]

Also I have to assume that reseeding the entire property with one grass type will help with the whole multicolor patch thing - right?

 

[g-man]

I also dislike fine fescue. It doesnt take heat well.

To avoid overseeding every year, I would suggest that KBG is the choice for your weather.

Spring seeding is hard since the young grass struggles in the summer heat plus PreM is a challenge. Fall is the best time to seed. In your area I would target mid august for seed.

If you like your neighbor yard, I suggest you go and ask him. You could probably bribe him with a homemade pie/cake for his techniques.

 

[phil]

Avoid *** and go with only TTTF?

My neighbor and I have become friends and he just keeps recommending his lawn service which I refuse to do 😀

 

[g-man]

I tweaked my wording to be clear. To avoid overseeding every year I would use kbg.

Does he knows what seeds he used?

 

[phil]

When I get home today I'll wander over and ask him. His service does everything but mow so probably not, but who knows. Would you suggest a blend of TTTF and *** or just the ***? I ask only because there's a decent amount of shade and I read that *** isn't best for shade.

 

[GrassDaddy]

Bewitched KBG does well in the shade. You could buy a shade mix with it already in it, or get it separate:
https://www.seedsuperstore.com/catalog/p-100004/ss6000-shady-mixture

Just note that it may still be patchy. Even if you overseed with the most amazing grass ever, you didn't kill the existing grass, so it will have variations. If you are becoming a lawn snob like me, you might want to plan to do a full reno.

Looking at what you have I totally understand the predicament.. It's a good looking lawn, but you want more. I was there. Took some time to convince the wife, and my friends/family/neighbors all thought I was insane. But now a year later it's starting to thrive and people are starting to see why I did it. But it's a lot of work. So sorry if I made it more difficult to decide lol

 

[phil]

So then in my part of the country, would mid-September be a good time to power rake, aerate and reseed with the *** blend? Like maybe a couple weeks after the Labor Day Milorganite application? Also Is it a good idea to de-thatch just prior to aerating? I don't see too much of a thatch issue except for some areas where the grass is damaged from fungus.

@GrassDaddy A total lawn reno would be a really fun project, but that's definitely not in the cards with all the things I have going on in life in general. I would totally enjoy that kind of project, though

I think that I'd be ok with some minor color variations over time as a consistent grass type blend was integrated into the lawn. That sounds like my best course of action. I have to imagine that after a couple/few years of reseeding with the same blend I would see a more consistent color even with the current lawn. Right?

 

[phil]

On another note, I just read a thread that explained that reseeding along with aerating isn't a great idea. That was my plan for this September in order to really even out the color and of course get a fuller lawn - what are your thoughts, guys?

 

[LIgrass]

@LIgrass That's good advice. I was actually thinking to overseed with PRG, so maybe I'll have to rethink that. The front yard shown in the pics gets full sun for only a few hours in the afternoon from say 1-4. Otherwise it's just filtered sun through lots of trees. So since the lawn is pretty healthy otherwise, I should probably just aerate and overseed this fall to even out the grass type - right? Eventually a few of those large trees will come down when I can afford it, but honestly it will probably take years to get all of them. Why aren't you a fan of fine fescue?

Why are you aerating? 1-4 hours is definitely no chance for PRG. I would try Bewitched KBG (nuglade and moonlight are also somewhat shade tolerant) or tall fescue, or even a blend if you want. Ericg has a blend like that in his backyard. Fine fescue looks shaggy and low quality to me unless maybe if cut short.

I have to imagine that after a couple/few years of reseeding with the same blend I would see a more consistent color even with the current lawn. Right?

It will never be fully consistent no matter what you do. Many have tried what you are suggesting and most of the time end up doing a full reno. Established grasses are not just going to disappear when you put new seed down. They will remain where they are and grow right along the new seed out-competing it and blocking much of the new seed from even establishing.

 

[phil]

@LIgrass I'd like to aerate first because I had a thatch problem last spring that I've slowly fixed by raking like a madman section by section every day after work for about a month (my shoulder currently still hurts and it's August). Second, I keep reading and seeing in videos that core aeration is the very best thing to do to improve an average lawn, so I just figured it was something I should do.

When springtime rolled around a few months ago I saw that the lawn specifically out front was weak and thin (and sometimes just pale green and light brown) no matter how much I watered. In fact, one time after a mow with my rider, the wide tracks the mower left turned brown and stayed flat. I thought maybe it was because of soil compaction creating an unhealthy lawn, but I guess I just could have been wrong about the cause. I use only a push mower now.

I do know that the sprinklers (impact sprinkler on a spike) go into the ground pretty easily, so maybe I don't have a compaction issue after all. Do you disagree with needing to aerate? I'm ok with skipping it if it's not really needed in my situation.

As for the varying colors, I guess I have to learn to live with it for now since a total lawn reno isn't something I can tackle this fall.

I grew up on LI and my parents had a service for the lawn, and when I moved to Albany after college I had a (very) tiny yard downtown that looked great but was super easy to keep looking nice. This is actually the first lawn of any meaningful size I've ever had to maintain myself, so I'm still basically watching youtube vids and reading around online.

 

[LIgrass]

@LIgrass I'd like to aerate first because I had a thatch problem last spring that I've slowly fixed by raking like a madman section by section every day after work for about a month (my shoulder currently still hurts and it's August). Second, I keep reading and seeing in videos that core aeration is the very best thing to do to improve an average lawn, so I just figured it was something I should do.

When springtime rolled around a few months ago I saw that the lawn specifically out front was weak and thin (and sometimes just pale green and light brown) no matter how much I watered. In fact, one time after a mow with my rider, the wide tracks the mower left turned brown and stayed flat. I thought maybe it was because of soil compaction creating an unhealthy lawn, but I guess I just could have been wrong about the cause. I use only a push mower now.

I do know that the sprinklers (impact sprinkler on a spike) go into the ground pretty easily, so maybe I don't have a compaction issue after all. Do you disagree with needing to aerate? I'm ok with skipping it if it's not really needed in my situation.

As for the varying colors, I guess I have to learn to live with it for now since a total lawn reno isn't something I can tackle this fall.

I grew up on LI and my parents had a service for the lawn, and when I moved to Albany after college I had a (very) tiny yard downtown that looked great but was super easy to keep looking nice. This is actually the first lawn of any meaningful size I've ever had to maintain myself, so I'm still basically watching youtube vids and reading around online.

Are you sure what you have is thatch? If you have a picture that would be great. Pull a core of soil and see what the thatch layer looks like. I don't mean to scare you but a lot of what you're describing sounds to me like Poa Trivialis. And your property looks like Triv would really thrive there.
I don't think aerating is necessary if you can put a spike straight through. It can help in some instances but hurt in others by spreading weeds, particularly grassy weeds like Triv.

 

[phil]

I guess I'm not very sure about the thatch. I know I have a fungus issue on the section of lawn on the other side of my driveway. A couple searches online made that plain, but the rest of the lawn didn't quite have those symptoms. I applied Bayer Fungus Control in the ready mix spray bottle last week, and I'll do another next week or thereabouts as well. The main lawn seems way better now though. When I reseeded I used Scott's Turf Builder which is a blend of PRG and ***, but it was definitely more on the PRG side. Do you think it's just the PRG having adverse affects from the shade? Maybe that's all it is?

I'll take some pictures when I get home today and post them. I can show you areas that I reseeded, had fantastic results, but after 6 weeks became patches of bare spots, thatch, and light green blah grass. It's not a lot of my lawn, maybe just a couple hundred square feet here and a couple hundred there.

 

[GrassDaddy]

On another note, I just read a thread that explained that reseeding along with aerating isn't a great idea. That was my plan for this September in order to really even out the color and of course get a fuller lawn - what are your thoughts, guys?

Many people aerate and overseed in the spring which is the wrong time to do it. Aerating and overseeding in the fall is more appropriate.. The reason isn't the aeration but the seeding. Spring time is when most weeds germinate. On top of that the first summer it's hard to keep the grass watered enough and dry enough to stay alive and prevent disease. So in general it's a tough time to seed (that being said, I've seeded this spring with fantastic results, and last summer with good results as well)

There is an opinion that aeration is bad across the board, but I'm on the fence about it personally. Fenway park aerates multiple times per month, and they don't have a weed infestation. The majority of landscapers aerate before overseeding. Many home owners with better lawns than I aerate. So I do question the validity of never aerate. The few times I have done it, it helped the seed germinate without peat moss or any top coat, and I didn't see any increase in weed pressure.

Anyways - A lot of what I've learned this past year is everything is on a scale. There is bad, good, better, best practices. Just because one thing might not be 100% the best, doesn't mean it's bad, and depends on a lot of variables so it might actually be the way to go. So the key is to learn the reasons and then decide what is more important to you.

 

[LIgrass]

^^ I do think the 'never disturb the soil' mantra is a little overblown as well. However, if someone has Triv I would advise strongly not to do it. It's impossible to say for sure but I would suspect there could be triv here from some of the pics and comments about the lawn that the OP made. https://postimg.cc/image/3k6pfrprd/ << That pic in particular looks like a possible Triv infestation to me (those large distinct lighter green patches) Phil, do you have access to Tenacity herbicide by any chance?

@Phil,

Do you think it's just the PRG having adverse affects from the shade?

Definitely a possibility. I would still investigate poa trivialis to see if that's something that could be in your lawn.

 

[phil]

Those lighter green areas are a couple of the patch areas and much newer grass - probably 3 months old now. I don't know if I have access to Tenacity, but I probably do. Tenacity is the herbicide I'd use for Triv if I have it?

I've noticed some brighter green areas with the grass growing in these very small clumps but spaces enough that the general area looks ok unless you look closer. I'll be home in a couple hours and post a bunch of pics.

You guys are very helpful - thanks.