Homeowner asking general help on auto sprinkler system

317 Views 20 Replies 4 Participants Last post by MasterMech, 3 d ago

vankjeff

Discussion Starter · 8 d ago

Based on what little I know about sprinkler plumbing, sprinklers & valves, I've got what I think is a weird issue that's been going on for a few months, maybe longer. In 1 of the 3 Zones that my timer has to program, it does the grass in the lower half of my little front yard, out by the street, which is maybe 6"-1' lower than up by the house. There's 6 sprinklers in that Zone. They all work perfectly but 2 of them are always basically underwater all day long. It never goes away.
The other 4 sprinklers in that same Zone don't have that going on.
It's not like the 2 bad ones are the lowest in that Zone. 1 is the mid-yard 360° and the other is out by the sidewalk and it's probably the lowest one in the yard. They are both in line with each other away, downslope from the valves, so maybe they're plumbed in one straight pipe that's not connected to the other ones. I have no idea of the arrangement of the plumbing underground.
What could I do to try to fix this? Surely it's not just bad sprinklers?

1 - 20 of 21 Posts

MasterMech

· #2 · 8 d ago

Sprays or rotors? Brand? Model?

Are they underwater whenever the system is running, or just after that zone runs? Does your system have a master valve in the mainline?

If they are the first two branches off the lateral then you might have a valve leaking just a little.

vankjeff

Discussion Starter · #3 · 8 d ago

Thanks for jumping in, MasterMech! I'll do my best to answer your questions.
All of the sprinklers just spray in either a strip, 90°, 180°, or 360°. They're various brands. We've lived in this house since the lawn was installed in 1993 just after the house was built and they've been changed by me and by a few lawncare guys. If it matters, I could go out and see what brand those 2 are that are leaking all the time. I have spares for both that I could install, but I've hesitated doing that since it's always flooded around the things and I don't wanna unscrew them and have the mud go down in the pipe and then clog the sprinkler.
I've never gone out there when they're running and gotten all wet, just to see what it looks like. But I have to assume that it's wet while it's running because it's wet all the rest of the time, which sure looks like those 2 are leaking even while they're not running.
There is a valve out by the sidewalk that can shut off the water to the whole sprinkler system.
Your last paragraph about the valve leaking a little is exactly what I had thought. But it didn't make any sense to me that the other 4 sprinklers that the same valve controls don't leak at all. I don't know what you mean when you say first 2 branches and lateral.

See less See more

MasterMech

· #4 · 7 d ago

vankjeff said:
Thanks for jumping in, MasterMech! I'll do my best to answer your questions.
All of the sprinklers just spray in either a strip, 90°, 180°, or 360°. They're various brands. We've lived in this house since the lawn was installed in 1993 just after the house was built and they've been changed by me and by a few lawncare guys. If it matters, I could go out and see what brand those 2 are that are leaking all the time. I have spares for both that I could install, but I've hesitated doing that since it's always flooded around the things and I don't wanna unscrew them and have the mud go down in the pipe and then clog the sprinkler.
I've never gone out there when they're running and gotten all wet, just to see what it looks like. But I have to assume that it's wet while it's running because it's wet all the rest of the time, which sure looks like those 2 are leaking even while they're not running.
There is a valve out by the sidewalk that can shut off the water to the whole sprinkler system.
Your last paragraph about the valve leaking a little is exactly what I had thought. But it didn't make any sense to me that the other 4 sprinklers that the same valve controls don't leak at all. I don't know what you mean when you say first 2 branches and lateral.

Ok, let me back up a bit then.

The line that supplies water from the supply to a zone valve or manifold is called a mainline. The line that supplies water to sprinkler heads from the zone valve is called a lateral. Branches are typically just small flexible pieces of pipe that connect the actual sprinkler head to the lateral. Sometimes/often, these are arranged in an assembly called a swing joint.

Many systems have an additional valve, electrically controlled, before actual zone valve called a Master Valve. The valve you mention out by your sidewalk sounds like it's just a manual shutoff/service valve. The easiest way to see if you have a master is to check and see if there is wiring for it present at your controller. If there are no wires present for a master valve, skip the rest of this paragraph. A master valve is open anytime your system is watering a zone. If a zone valve was leaking for the area in question, it would do so whenever the system is running, even if the problem zone hasn't run yet. So no need to get wet, just run 1 or two zones that are NOT the zone that leaks and observe whether or not you get water at the heads in question. You could also manually open the master valve (the method of doing so varies somewhat from brand to brand) and not run any zones. Leave it open for an hour or two and see what happens.

If it IS a zone valve leaking, then it would normally present itself at the first one or two heads along the lateral unless others are significantly lower or they have certain features like a built-in check valve that cause the trickle of water to leak from other heads first. That's why I asked about the brands and type of heads you have, to see if we uncover any "ah-ha" moments for strange behavior that otherwise defies the laws of physics.

If it's wet out there ALL the time, even if the system has not run for a few days, and you don't have a master valve in the system, confirm that it is the zone valve leaking by shutting off your service valve for a couple days.

It's also possible that you have a problem at the heads themselves. Loose connection, cracked bodies, damaged pipe, etc. This would be the case if the water only shows up while that zone is running or has recently run.

The good news is that spray heads are pretty universal, and dirt (haha) cheap to replace. You may not even have to unscrew the head from the branch piping if the bodies are compatible as many of the common brands are, just unscrew the guts from the outer body and screw the new one on. Even if you elect to replace the entire sprinkler head, you could do it after the zone has been off for a few days (it does rain in SoCal on occasion right?) or just dig a little next to the head so that any water that comes out of the pipe has somewhere to go instead of collapsing the hole. You don't need to dig out a huge hole, just couple inches under the base of the sprinkler and a hands width or so to the side will do fine. You can use a small potting/garden spade even. I have an irrigation shovel that has a full-size handle and the spade is only 4" wide. But I do this kind of stuff on semi-frequent occasion and love accumulating tools.

See less See more

GCoco

· #5 · 7 d ago

Remove the head, not the body, just the guts. Does water continue to come out the body after a few minutes of the line draining (obviously when system not running)? If so bad valve. Either replace the whole valve of the diaphragm on the inside.

Reactions: 1

vankjeff

Discussion Starter · #6 · 6 d ago

7

MasterMech said:
Ok, let me back up a bit then.

The line that supplies water from the supply to a Zone Valve or manifold is called a mainline. The line that supplies water to sprinkler heads from the Zone Valve is called a Lateral. Branches are typically just small, flexible pieces of pipe that connect the actual sprinkler head to the Lateral. Sometimes/often, these are arranged in an assembly called a swing joint.

Many systems have an additional valve, electrically controlled, before actual zone valve called a Master Valve. The valve you mention out by your sidewalk sounds like it's just a manual Shutoff/Service Valve. The easiest way to see if you have a Master is to check and see if there is wiring for it present at your controller. If there are no wires present for a Master Valve, skip the rest of this paragraph. A Master Valve is open anytime your system is watering a Zone. If a Zone Valve was leaking for the area in question, it would do so whenever the system is running, even if the problem Zone hasn't run yet. So no need to get wet, just run 1 or 2 Zones that are NOT the Zone that leaks and observe whether or not you get water at the heads in question. You could also manually open the master valve (the method of doing so varies somewhat from brand to brand) and not run any zones. Leave it open for an hour or two and see what happens.

If it IS a zone valve leaking, then it would normally present itself at the first one or two heads along the lateral unless others are significantly lower or they have certain features like a built-in check valve that cause the trickle of water to leak from other heads first. That's why I asked about the brands and type of heads you have, to see if we uncover any "ah-ha" moments for strange behavior that otherwise defies the laws of physics.

If it's wet out there ALL the time, even if the system has not run for a few days, and you don't have a master valve in the system, confirm that it is the zone valve leaking by shutting off your service valve for a couple days.

It's also possible that you have a problem at the heads themselves. Loose connection, cracked bodies, damaged pipe, etc. This would be the case if the water only shows up while that zone is running or has recently run.

The good news is that spray heads are pretty universal, and dirt (haha) cheap to replace. You may not even have to unscrew the head from the branch piping if the bodies are compatible as many of the common brands are, just unscrew the guts from the outer body and screw the new one on. Even if you elect to replace the entire sprinkler head, you could do it after the zone has been off for a few days (it does rain in SoCal on occasion right?) or just dig a little next to the head so that any water that comes out of the pipe has somewhere to go instead of collapsing the hole. You don't need to dig out a huge hole, just couple inches under the base of the sprinkler and a hands width or so to the side will do fine. You can use a small potting/garden spade even. I have an irrigation shovel that has a full-size handle and the spade is only 4" wide. But I do this kind of stuff on semi-frequent occasion and love accumulating tools.

WOW! I'm learning stuff. Thanks.
OK, as far as a Master Valve, I'm pretty sure there isn't one in my system. I haven't seen one anywhere. I wouldn't know where it would be but the only electrically controlled valves I've seen are the 3 Zone Valves in the front yard and the 3 in the backyard.
I just ran the backyard Zones since they're NOT associated at all with the Zone that leaks and xxxxxxx you get water at the heads in question.

GCoco said:
Remove the head, not the body, just the guts. Does water continue to come out the body after a few minutes of the line draining (obviously when system not running)? If so bad valve. Either replace the whole valve of the diaphragm on the inside.

I'll do that tomorrow. It would sure be easier to just replace a valve diaphragm if I knew where to get one. First I'll need to figure out which of the 3 front yard Zone valves is the one that operates the 2 leakers.
Here's some photos of my mess.
This 2 photos of the 1 that's beside the manual system valve is always wet on top but there's room for the water to flow away from it:

Here's my 3 messy valves, 1 of which must be bad & not closing fully. I don't know how to manually turn them ON to figure out which it is:

My controller is a HYDRO-RAIN HRC 100C 6-Station.

This one is a 360° pop-up it's in the middle of the front yard it's always under this much water 24/7

.

See less See more

vankjeff

Discussion Starter · #7 · 6 d ago

MasterMech said:
Ok, let me back up a bit then.

The line that supplies water from the supply to a zone valve or manifold is called a mainline. The line that supplies water to sprinkler heads from the zone valve is called a lateral. Branches are typically just small flexible pieces of pipe that connect the actual sprinkler head to the lateral. Sometimes/often, these are arranged in an assembly called a swing joint.

Many systems have an additional valve, electrically controlled, before actual zone valve called a Master Valve. The valve you mention out by your sidewalk sounds like it's just a manual shutoff/service valve. The easiest way to see if you have a master is to check and see if there is wiring for it present at your controller. If there are no wires present for a master valve, skip the rest of this paragraph. A master valve is open anytime your system is watering a zone. If a zone valve was leaking for the area in question, it would do so whenever the system is running, even if the problem zone hasn't run yet. So no need to get wet, just run 1 or two zones that are NOT the zone that leaks and observe whether or not you get water at the heads in question. You could also manually open the master valve (the method of doing so varies somewhat from brand to brand) and not run any zones. Leave it open for an hour or two and see what happens.

If it IS a zone valve leaking, then it would normally present itself at the first one or two heads along the lateral unless others are significantly lower or they have certain features like a built-in check valve that cause the trickle of water to leak from other heads first. That's why I asked about the brands and type of heads you have, to see if we uncover any "ah-ha" moments for strange behavior that otherwise defies the laws of physics.

If it's wet out there ALL the time, even if the system has not run for a few days, and you don't have a master valve in the system, confirm that it is the zone valve leaking by shutting off your service valve for a couple days.

It's also possible that you have a problem at the heads themselves. Loose connection, cracked bodies, damaged pipe, etc. This would be the case if the water only shows up while that zone is running or has recently run.

The good news is that spray heads are pretty universal, and dirt (haha) cheap to replace. You may not even have to unscrew the head from the branch piping if the bodies are compatible as many of the common brands are, just unscrew the guts from the outer body and screw the new one on. Even if you elect to replace the entire sprinkler head, you could do it after the zone has been off for a few days (it does rain in SoCal on occasion right?) or just dig a little next to the head so that any water that comes out of the pipe has somewhere to go instead of collapsing the hole. You don't need to dig out a huge hole, just couple inches under the base of the sprinkler and a hands width or so to the side will do fine. You can use a small potting/garden spade even. I have an irrigation shovel that has a full-size handle and the spade is only 4" wide. But I do this kind of stuff on semi-frequent occasion and love accumulating tools.

There's no check valves in these cheap, popup sprinklers and I doubt in the PVC lines that feed them, or at least not that I know of or see. The leaker that's out by the Shutoff Valve at the street is a is a RAIN BIRD.
The leaker in mid-yard in the other photo is underwater too far to see the brand. The water level looks exactly like that 24/7even though the sprinklers only run starting at 6am.
The other 4 sprinklers that run at the sametime as the 2 leakers, don't leak at all.
I just ran the backyard Zones and nothing changed about the water surrounding those 2 front yard leakers while it was running. No water movement, no nothing. I never see any water movement on either.
There isn't a XXXX (Master?) Valve anywhere that I've ever seen, just the HYDRA-RAIN HRC 100-Cookie 04056 6- Station controller and the 6 Zone Valves that it controls. Each Zone has 4-6 sprinklers in it.
GCoco said "Remove the head, not the body, just the guts. Does water continue to come out the body after a few minutes of the line draining (obviously when system not running)? If so bad valve. Either replace the whole valve or just the diaphragm on the inside."
I haven't tried that yet. I'll try it soon.
I wonder, where would I find a Valve Diaphragm? Seems like the places that I go to only sell complete Valves, but I could be wrong.
I bet replacing the Diaphragm would be way easier & quicker than messing with PVC glue & wiring.
I should mention that all of my sprinkler guts don't seem to fit in all of the bodies. I tried that a few days ago on one in another Zone that kept getting stuck UP since I've been told that I could do that to make it simpler. It didn't fit. The new popup part didn't exactly fit into the old one's body.

See less See more

vankjeff_3856

· #8 · 6 d ago

I don't know why all of those BIG duplicate photos were added into my last Reply. I probably did something wrong when it asked me if I wanted to post FULL IMAGES or THUMBNAILS. Sorry.
I logged in today on my PC instead of my iPhone, hoping to use an EDIT to remove the duplicates, but there is no EDIT anywhere to be found. Maybe it's only there until someone else has Viewed my Reply and it's programmed to then disappear automatically? Or maybe there's never an EDIT? If there isn't, somebody should add one. That's just common sense. People make mistakes that they only see later as they're re-reading what they just posted.

vankjeff

Discussion Starter · #9 · 6 d ago (Edited)

2

GCoco said:
Remove the head, not the body, just the guts. Does water continue to come out the body after a few minutes of the line draining (obviously when system not running)? If so bad valve. Either replace the whole valve of the diaphragm on the inside.

I just did this. I did the one out by the street since it's not in a constant puddle because there's downslope next to it that lets the water flow away. I know that it's leaking constantly due to how muddy it always is around it plus there's always water on top ot the sprinkler. It's a Rain Bird 4" 180° popup.
I took the cap off which pulls the guts out with it and the water level just kept rising and flowing over to top of the body. I waited for a while and I even kept splashing water out of the body, but it kept refilling for quite a long time, maybe 10 minutes.
Then as I walked back up to the house, I saw another one that I'd never noticed leaking was all wet on top, just like those other 2. The sprinklers haven't run in 7 hours and it's a nice, warm, sunny day here in Orange, California. 😎
Here's photos of both.

See less See more

GCoco

· #10 · 6 d ago

You have valves that are leaking. Replace them or the diagrahm.

Reactions: 1

vankjeff_3856

· #11 · 6 d ago

GCoco said:
You have valves that are leaking. Replace them or the diagrahm.

Thanks again. 2 simple homeowner question then. I'm OK fixing stuff and figuring out stuff usually, but how do I know which of the 3 valves needs to be replaced or to have a new diaphragm put in it? I see 3 different brands or designs of valves in a row for the front yard. I'd really rather just replace the diaphragm if I can find out what part to get & where. Everywhere I go just seems to sell complete valves but replacing that would involve sawing PVC and then gluing a new one on and wiring it. A parts replacement would seem way easier.
Also, how do I figure out which valve it is? Isn't there some way as I remember that they can be manually turned on?

vankjeff

Discussion Starter · #12 · 5 d ago

GCoco said:
You have valves that are leaking. Replace them or the diagrahm.

The ACE Hardware by my house does have 3 brands of sprinkler valve diaphragm rebuild kits or gaskets & I even saw how easy it is to turn the valve ON manually to figure out which one to fix.
They're cheap too!
I'M ON IT. Thanks, you guys. 👍
I'll come back with the results which will hopefully be GOOD.

Reactions: 1

vankjeff

Discussion Starter · #13 · 5 d ago

Bummer. The valve that's needing a new diaphragm is 1 of these 2 old Superiors that are probably originals that are 30 years old. My local ACE only has Rain Bird, Champion and Hunter diaphragms. I can't find that brand of sprinkler valves or parts for them anywhere online. It looks like replacing the diaphragm would be an easy 6 Phillips head screws.
Any clue where I might find diaphragms? I'd probably replace both & even buy extras.

See less See more

vankjeff

Discussion Starter · #14 · 5 d ago

Those 2 old Superior valves don't seem to have anything on them to manually turn them ON/OFF, so I don't know how I'd even be able to figure out which one was for the Zone that I need to fix. I don't have a voltmeter to diagnose it at the wire nuts when the timer is running them. That's why I think if I can get the part, I would just fix both of them.
There's a little knob on top, but it's just spews water out of it if I unscrew it a little bit. So it must just be a bleeder screw or something to let you verify that there's water pressure in the valve.

GCoco

· #15 · 5 d ago

Bite the bullet and replace all the 30 year old valves and put new ones with a manual control. They will all fail sooner or later. I like RB.

vankjeff

Discussion Starter · #16 · 4 d ago

GCoco said:
Bite the bullet and replace all the 30 year old valves and put new ones with a manual control. They will all fail sooner or later. I like RB.

I figured that's what I should do & that's what you'd say. I've just been trying to go cheap since I'm old and retired on disability and plan on selling this big house soon to downsize. Having new sprinkler system valves won't be something for the home listing that will raise the value. 😉
So, I guess your favorite RB means RainBird.
Dumb question then ... I noticed that there's 3/4" & 1" valves at ACE and the inlet & outlet are both on the bottom like mine. Are they just threaded on? It looks like I see things on mine to just thread them on. Is that right?
Also, are the inlet & outlet plumbing spaced a standard distance apart? I hope they are since that would make it super easy to put new ones on.

See less See more

GCoco

· #17 · 4 d ago

Even if threaded you still have to cut pipe. Some are slip. I never understood threaded valves since you have to glue to a threaded adapter.

Looks like yours are threaded since I see an adapter on one. No mater what you do you have to cut and glue.

vankjeff

Discussion Starter · #18 · 4 d ago (Edited)

GCoco said:
Even if threaded you still have to cut pipe. Some are slip. I never understood threaded valves since you have to glue to a threaded adapter.

Looks like yours are threaded since I see an adapter on one. No mater what you do you have to cut and glue.

Okay thanks.
What do you mean saying "you have to glue to a threaded adapter"? Do you mean that you need to glue on a threaded adapter? But isn't mine already threaded if my valve looks like it's threaded on?
One last dumb question, what's the approximate OD of both 3/4" & 1" PVC so I can measure mine and buy the right valve or valves?
Also, my valves have their inlets & outlets on the bottom & yet on Amazon all I see are straight-thru valves that would be used in a box. Am I missing something?
If you can find what I should use on Amazon that isn't to expensive, I'm on it.
I've got PVC glue if I need it but I bet it would be tricky cutting the old one off so I can glue on the new one or a new adapter. I don't have a reciprocating saw or a Reciprocating saw or a PVC pipe cutter, just a hack saw.
I suppose if I had to hacksaw the old one off, I could just do it as perpendicular as possible to the ground but a little bit of an angle and the valve would still be able to be glued on strong enough & not leak. Right?
Otherwise, I might need to have this done for me.
I could get this cheap, manual PVC pipe cutter.

See less See more

GCoco

· #19 · 4 d ago

I use same cutters you posted.

3/4“ PVC OD is just over 1”. 1” PVC OD is about 1-3/8”

You have to glue a threaded adapter to pipe. To unscrew valve you have to be able to turn the valve or the pipe. Unless you cut pipe you cannot do either. They have youtube videos on using PVC. Get a handy neighbor and a 12 pack of Coors Light. If you get Bud Light he will sabatoge your system (as would I ).

Reactions: 1

MasterMech

· #20 · 3 d ago

Get the manual cutter. I do not saw small diameter (anything under 2") PVC anymore unless it's demolition. Even then, the cutter is just as fast and no risk to surrounding materials. They also work a treat as hose cutters.

1 - 20 of 21 Posts