[Easyluck]

Anything else that I can do to prevent the grass dying and crabgrass taking over like last year?

How high are you mowing and how often? I would stop mowing for the remainder of the summer.

 

[g-man]

I don't think plants need extra water with nitrogen, but plants need water to utilize nitrogen.

This is incorrect. When a grass gets nitrogen it will use it to grow. That grow needs more water than a lawn without the extra nitrogen.

If you go to most Univ publications, they advise against summer fertilizer (ok in irrigated high maintenance lawns). They don't have a financial incentive to sell a fertilizer product.

https://turf.unl.edu/NebGuides/HomeLawnFertilization2012f.pdf

 

[greencare]

I don't think plants need extra water with nitrogen, but plants need water to utilize nitrogen.

This is incorrect. When a grass gets nitrogen it will use it to grow. That grow needs more water than a lawn without the extra nitrogen.

If you go to most Univ publications, they advise against summer fertilizer (ok in irrigated high maintenance lawns). They don't have a financial incentive to sell a fertilizer product.

https://turf.unl.edu/NebGuides/HomeLawnFertilization2012f.pdf

Yes, when grass gets nitrogen, it will utilize it to grow. That is what I said, but only if water needs are met. Otherwise, lawns under fertilization programs would require more water than lawns under no fertilization. My experience has been the direct opposite.

As for university publications, let me see their lawns first before I listen to them. Scotts has more to lose monetarily than university publications' safe approach. And I sincerely disagree with their notion to reduce fertilization in spring. I think this has to be the worst advise I have read to date. Not the only bad advise in the publication, but has to be the worst. How in the world does spring fertilization reduce root growth? Doesn't make any sense. Roots search for water, not nutrients. That's why you have shallow roots with frequent waterings. And having a thick turf in spring helps grass prepare to retain more moisture for the summer months by providing a better coverage of soil. Again, I have no idea where their advise comes from. I need to see their lawns first.

 

[davegravy]

Over time the Fine fescues will die off as the TTTF gets more prominent and the TTTF will fill in and should look good.

This hasn't been my experience. It's possible my overseeding technique is flawed but my fine fescue keeps dominating whatever I overseed with. I've been overseeding for years with no improvement in summer performance. On the other hand the small area where I did a full reno is looking great so far this summer.

My FF is incredibly hardy and aggressive, just not in summer.

 

[Sinclair]

Watering 15 min/day promotes shallow roots, which makes the lawn susceptible to drought.

You'd be better off using the exact same amount of water, but running 45-60 min every 3-4 days.

 

[g-man]

@greencare You can go and see their lawns and control plots. Most universities have a Turf Field Day (not this year with Covid). Graduate students spend years doing research with multiple test plots, grow chambers and labs to write their thesis. Professors do research on different products and report their observations for peer review. These feed their publications.

Spring fertilization is something they have studied in detail. Roots search for water and nutrients. The function of the roots is more than just getting water, they also store carbohydrates. The carbs are used by the plant to grow, but the whole plant. When you feed it nitrogen, it will have to tap into the carbs to get leaf growth (plant needs more than nitrogen). When you push the leaf growth in the spring, you will use/deplete the carbs that it uses in the summer to survive the summer heat.

 

[greencare]

@greencare You can go and see their lawns and control plots. Most universities have a Turf Field Day (not this year with Covid). Graduate students spend years doing research with multiple test plots, grow chambers and labs to write their thesis. Professors do research on different products and report their observations for peer review. These feed their publications.

Spring fertilization is something they have studied in detail. Roots search for water and nutrients. The function of the roots is more than just getting water, they also store carbohydrates. The carbs are used by the plant to grow, but the whole plant. When you feed it nitrogen, it will have to tap into the carbs to get leaf growth (plant needs more than nitrogen). When you push the leaf growth in the spring, you will use/deplete the carbs that it uses in the summer to survive the summer heat.

Hmm, interesting. I didn't know abut the whole carb situation. I am curious to learn how they differentiated between roots going for water or nutrients, or both.

 

[john5246]

I would try not fertilizing outside of the fall and verify you don't have grubs under your dead patches.

how do you meet the yearly nitrogen requirements for something like KBG which is around 4lbs of N/1000 sq ft if you are only fertilizing in the fall?

 

[davegravy]

I would try not fertilizing outside of the fall and verify you don't have grubs under your dead patches.

how do you meet the yearly nitrogen requirements for something like KBG which is around 4lbs of N/1000 sq ft if you are only fertilizing in the fall?

Fall N blitz. Read more about it in the cool season guide

 

[Babameca]

I would try not fertilizing outside of the fall and verify you don't have grubs under your dead patches.

how do you meet the yearly nitrogen requirements for something like KBG which is around 4lbs of N/1000 sq ft if you are only fertilizing in the fall?

From mid Aug to end Oct 0.25N is 3lbs of N. 1/4 weekly or 1/2 every other week, depends of what is doable for you and the type of N you use.

 

[Green]

Thanks for all of the replies everyone. This has been a big help. I will:
Decrease watering frequency to 2-3 times week.
Increase watering amount to at least .5in per application

Just one note. This time of year in the Northeast, 1 inch a week including rain, should be more or less sufficient. If you water 3x per week for 1.5 inch total, you will likely over water some areas right now, which can cause other issues on top of the ones you're currently facing.

In July, you may well need to water 3x per week at 0.5 inch each time in sunny areas, if it's around 90 every day.

 

[Green]

Yes, when grass gets nitrogen, it will utilize it to grow. That is what I said, but only if water needs are met. Otherwise, lawns under fertilization programs would require more water than lawns under no fertilization. My experience has been the direct opposite.

As for university publications, let me see their lawns first before I listen to them. Scotts has more to lose monetarily than university publications' safe approach. And I sincerely disagree with their notion to reduce fertilization in spring. I think this has to be the worst advise I have read to date. Not the only bad advise in the publication, but has to be the worst. How in the world does spring fertilization reduce root growth? Doesn't make any sense. Roots search for water, not nutrients. That's why you have shallow roots with frequent waterings. And having a thick turf in spring helps grass prepare to retain more moisture for the summer months by providing a better coverage of soil. Again, I have no idea where their advise comes from. I need to see their lawns first.

You specifically mentioned Scotts Summerguard as an example, though, which has a lot of coated controlled release N, so if the turf doesn't get enough water, the N simply won't release en masse. But if someone uses a 100% fast release product under the same heat and doesn't get sufficient water, the salt content of the urea and ammonium sulfate or other N source might burn the grass. I've even seen pros do this with fert and/or weed killer in the late Spring and Summer. Just because they're all pros doesn't mean all of them are turf experts. Some do lawn care as a secondary part of their business model and don't totally know the nuances, or may be new and less experienced than veteran applicators.

Yes, I get that you were talking about supplying a low amount of N to turf that truly needs it (or at least can make use of it and is watered in and cared for properly). Lots of irrigated high input lawns are fertilized with up to 0.5 lb N in the middle of July in many regions, and do well. Is it best practice? Probably not. Could you do it with TTTF in South Carolina in a normal year, or to get even more extreme, KBG in Georgia? Nope.

 

[Green]

Over time the Fine fescues will die off as the TTTF gets more prominent and the TTTF will fill in and should look good.

This hasn't been my experience. It's possible my overseeding technique is flawed but my fine fescue keeps dominating whatever I overseed with. I've been overseeding for years with no improvement in summer performance. On the other hand the small area where I did a full reno is looking great so far this summer.

My FF is incredibly hardy and aggressive, just not in summer.

I've had it work. But again, in almost full sun.

 

[davegravy]

Over time the Fine fescues will die off as the TTTF gets more prominent and the TTTF will fill in and should look good.

This hasn't been my experience. It's possible my overseeding technique is flawed but my fine fescue keeps dominating whatever I overseed with. I've been overseeding for years with no improvement in summer performance. On the other hand the small area where I did a full reno is looking great so far this summer.

My FF is incredibly hardy and aggressive, just not in summer.

I've had it work. But again, in almost full sun.

Is your FF grown from seed you sewed, or was on your lot when you bought the property and might have been around for 20 or 50 years like mine?

 

[Green]

Is your FF grown from seed you sewed, or was on your lot when you bought the property and might have been around for 20 or 50 years like mine?

It was there about 30 years, and established. But I've been using Tenacity for the last 7+ years.

 

[Green]

One other comment. Fine Fescue just hates lots of fertilizer, especially in the warmer months. It's not like the other grass types that can do well with like 4 lbs of N a year.

 

[davegravy]

One other comment. Fine Fescue just hates lots of fertilizer, especially in the warmer months. It's not like the other grass types that can do well with like 4 lbs of N a year.

Might explain why my neighbour's lawns look so much better in summer despite them not doing much maintenance. Don't think they ever fertilize.

 

[mooch91]

@davegravy @FuzzeWuzze @Green

Over time the Fine fescues will die off as the TTTF gets more prominent and the TTTF will fill in and should look good.

This hasn't been my experience. It's possible my overseeding technique is flawed but my fine fescue keeps dominating whatever I overseed with. I've been overseeding for years with no improvement in summer performance. On the other hand the small area where I did a full reno is looking great so far this summer.

My FF is incredibly hardy and aggressive, just not in summer.

I've had it work. But again, in almost full sun.

Hated to resurrect and hijack this, but it's so relevant to me.

I have a northern mix lawn and find out of the 7-8 month growing season, it looks really good for about 3 of those months. April and then September and October. Something in the mix is weak - it succumbs to fungus and gets yellowy in early in May, dries out before everything else does in June, thins, and then recovers in September to green up and grow like gangbusters for the fall. I've renovated some areas with TTTF which look phenomenal all throughout the season and others with TTTF and KBG which do pretty good as well. I've wanted to badly to get some TTTF growing in the northern mix, as I think it would really fill in the gaps left by the weak grass in the mix, but it seems like the couple of times I've tried I've wasted seed. Not sure I did it well - may not have cut short enough first, may not have used enough seed, aeration may not have been sufficient, etc. @davegravy - like you noted, it's almost as if the weak grass in the mix (if fine fescue) thrives at the ideal time to overseed and never lets the overseed establish.

Any tips or hints on how I might be able to get some success at improving the stand, rates for overseed, techniques, would be appreciated.

@Green - would like to hear more about your Tenacity technique. Are you broadcast spreading to keep the fine fescue down?

Pic to show appearance through much of the summer. Beyond the line of four trees is TTTF/KBG mix which looks remarkably different.

Thanks!

 

[ken-n-nancy]

... I have a northern mix lawn and find out of the 7-8 month growing season, it looks really good for about 3 of those months. April and then September and October. Something in the mix is weak - it succumbs to fungus and gets yellowy in early in May, dries out before everything else does in June, thins, and then recovers in September to green up and grow like gangbusters for the fall. I've renovated some areas with TTTF which look phenomenal all throughout the season and others with TTTF and KBG which do pretty good as well. I've wanted to badly to get some TTTF growing in the northern mix, as I think it would really fill in the gaps left by the weak grass in the mix, but it seems like the couple of times I've tried I've wasted seed. Not sure I did it well - may not have cut short enough first, may not have used enough seed, aeration may not have been sufficient, etc. @davegravy - like you noted, it's almost as if the weak grass in the mix (if fine fescue) thrives at the ideal time to overseed and never lets the overseed establish.

Any tips or hints on how I might be able to get some success at improving the stand, rates for overseed, techniques, would be appreciated.

At the risk of saying the obvious, you already know the answer...

The only way to replace a northern mix lawn with a different type is to kill off the grass you don't want in the lawn, and seed the grass you do want. You said it yourself, "I've renovated some areas... which look phenomenal..."

If you currently have a northern mix lawn and want something different, the only way is to kill it off and start over.

Which leads me to a classic Warren Miller quote, which seems ironic for a lawn forum... "If you don't do it this year, you will be one year older when you do."

If you aren't willing to kill it off and start over, then just settle for the fact that a northern mix will look awesome in April, May, September, and October and enjoy your extra free time in July and August when you won't have to mow as often because growth has slowed way down.

 

[Green]

@mooch91, Tenacity is something I use pretty often, blanket sprayed. Long and often enough over a few years, and your FF will reduce. I've done higher rates intentionally, too, like 5-6oz oer acre on small areas for that reason specifically. In shade though, embrace the FF.

Overseeding can be tough. The worse condition your current lawn is in, and the more room for new seed in it, the better it works. Scalp, dethatch, dry out, aerate, PGR, and Tenacity prior to seeding works well.

TTTF seems like a weak competitor until it gets established. It can take several overseeds to get it incorporated sometimes. Dead and dormant grass is better...makes it easier to overseed.