[CPA Nerd]

Hi all. I am a relatively new homeowner just looking to get my lawn in slightly above average shape. My wife and I moved into our house in fall of 2016 and unfortunately, the 6,000 square foot lawn is not in great shape. We have clay soil. Half of the lawn is decent and certainly presentable, but the other 3,000 square feet is probably 40% bare or thin, with a ton of weeds.

Last fall, I paid a service to core aerate and power seed the lawn. I watered diligently, but results were not great. In a few spots where I added topsoil (such as 30 square feet where a tree used to be), the grass grew in decently, but not in the rest of the lawn.

The company came back ten days ago to power seed the entire lawn again, but I'm not seeing much come up this time either. I also know that spring seedings are hard to maintain throughout the summer, so I'm now attempting to formulate a plan of attack for fall and I would like to do it all myself.

In general, here are my questions:

1. Can I use weed killer such as Weed B Gon on the lawn in the summer and still seed in the fall? Say around 8 weeks apart. I believe the answer is yes but want to confirm.

2. I believe that a big part of the problem may be my soil. What is the most reliable soil test? I'd like to get the soil in good order so that whatever hard work I do and money I spend in the fall is not for nothing. Would I amend the soil in the late summer or fall and then aerate and seed immediately after?

3. The lawn has some thatch, but the biggest problem seems to be the compacted soil. Does aerating accomplish the same thing as dethatching, or would it be recommended to do both?

4. Once I have the soil amended, what is the best plan of attack? Aerate and overseed with a spreader? Or do I need to slit seed? How about timing and order? Aerate in early September, then two weeks later seed? Or do them at the same time?

5. How much water is recommended? I have been watering the lawn 15 minutes, twice a day in each spot and it seems to be saturated, with puddles even forming in a few spots immediately after watering. Is this doing harm to the lawn?

Thank you for any and all advice.

 

[social port]

he company came back ten days ago to power seed the entire lawn again, but I'm not seeing much come up this time either.

Cool season grasses vary considerably in germination times. Perennial Rye is the shortest, followed by Fescue, and then Kentucky Bluegrass. Fescue can take 14+ days, and Kentucky Bluegrass can take 21+. 10 days is not a lost cause, so I suggest to keep watering.

I'm now attempting to formulate a plan of attack for fall and I would like to do it all myself.

Sounds great. I would be frustrated with the lawn care company too. Tending to the lawn has become a major source of enjoyment for many of us who decided one day to just take care of things ourselves.

1. Can I use weed killer such as Weed B Gon on the lawn in the summer and still seed in the fall? Say around 8 weeks apart. I believe the answer is yes but want to confirm.

Yes. Check the label before applying, but there are plenty of options for solid post-emergent weed control (like Weed B Gone) that will let you seed 30 (I believe) days after application.

I believe that a big part of the problem may be my soil. What is the most reliable soil test?

Check out @Ridgerunner 's post on soil testing services here https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=1088&start=40
I've used Logan Labs, but they charge extra for recommendations.
This thread https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2533 convinced me that, once you've had your soil tested by a reliable agency, it is smart to continue using the same lab.

I'd like to get the soil in good order so that whatever hard work I do and money I spend in the fall is not for nothing

I think that this is a very smart strategy.

Would I amend the soil in the late summer or fall and then aerate and seed immediately after?

I'll have to defer here because it is a little tricky. With many nutrients (such as phosphorous), you can only apply so much at one time (one pound of the nutrient per month, for example). That means that amendments must be made over a long period of time if you have major deficiencies. Whether the summer is the best time to be adding nutrients (due to added stress) is an issue that hopefully someone else can address.

3. The lawn has some thatch, but the biggest problem seems to be the compacted soil. Does aerating accomplish the same thing as dethatching, or would it be recommended to do both?

Not the same thing. Dethatching removes dead grass/weeds from the surface of the soil. Core aeration creates openings in your soil's surface. Core aeration is often recommended for compacted soil. As far as what you should do: That rides so much on individual assessment and preferences that you would be best served by looking into the practices and making an informed decision. Many people dethatch. Some don't. The same is true of core aeration. Personally, for aeration, I've used surfactants in the past (loosely called liquid aeration, though that seems to be increasingly becoming a misnomer) on compacted clay soil and have been just fine. I will also be dethatching this year (tall fescue lawns can have thatch build up), but I will likely be using a non-traditional, 'liquid dethatching' product.

4. Once I have the soil amended, what is the best plan of attack? Aerate and overseed with a spreader? Or do I need to slit seed? How about timing and order? Aerate in early September, then two weeks later seed? Or do them at the same time?

Most of us seed between August and late September (at the latest), depending on location, temps, and onset of winter. You can aerate and seed on the same day if you wish. Spreader vs. slit seeder: Either one is a good choice, but if you are overseeding into existing grass, I'd go with the spreader (mostly due to lack of experience with slit seeding).

How much water is recommended? I have been watering the lawn 15 minutes, twice a day in each spot and it seems to be saturated, with puddles even forming in a few spots immediately after watering. Is this doing harm to the lawn?

You might consider upping your frequency and decreasing the amount of time at each watering. You want the seed moist, but not overly wet. It kind of sounds like your soil is really compacted, with much of the water failing to be absorbed (though I am just speculating here). Avoid those puddles.

You may find this thread helpful https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1595

And welcome to TLF :thumbup:

 

[Ridgerunner]

Welcome to TLF.
Do you happen to know the pH of your soil?
My recollection is that some soils in upper Illinois can be quite alkaline (high pH). Maybe one of the members can verify this?
When doing an initial soil test, I suggest that you test for phosphorous, major cations, and micro-nutrients.
If a soil has a pH below 7.2, Mehlich 3 is a good accurate universal test at the least cost. Many members have been using Waypoint Analytical, but there are a number of good alternatives which you can find in the FAQ SP directed you to.
If a soil is above pH 7, Mehlich 3 will become ever more inaccurate as pH increases and the results become very inaccurate (pretty much useless) above pH 7.5.
For accurate, useful test results in soils above pH 7, separate tests should be employed for phosphorous (Olsen), major cations (ammonium acetate) and for the micro-nutrients (DTPA). Because three tests are used there is an increased cost.
If you don't know the pH of your soil I would suggest you test using ammonium acetate (accurate and useful results for for both high and low pH soils), Bray P1 (for low pH) and Olsen (for high pH) for phosphorous, and DTPA for micro-nutrients ( accurate and useful results for for both high and low pH soils). Midwest Labs is one alternative for doing the 3 part testing. Midwest's S3C test is $25.50 an uses
Bray P1 and P2 for phosphorous, ammonium acetate for major cations, and DTPA for micro-nutrients. The Olsen test for phosphorous is an additional dollar. For 26.50 you will get accurate results whether the soil has a high or low pH.
If you do not wish to test for the micro-nutrients, they have a number of test options for less than $15 (plus the $1 for the Olsen test which you'll need to request no matter what test option you select). The less expensive packages eliminate some extra testing included in the higher price packages, like buffer pH, salt content etc). I'm not endorsing or promoting Midwest over any other lab, I reference them as an example of a lab offering the 3 part test.
You can view Midwest test packages here:
https://midwestlabs.com/test-packages/?fwp_industry=agriculture

 

[g-man]

^+1

Some chicago soil are very good, but others could be high in pH. If you have hardwater in your area, I would say it is likely that the pH will be high.

If you go with Waypoint Analytical, I would request the SW1 test for alkaline soils at the TN site (not the IL one). It is in their agricultural page instead of the home owner section. It does the Olsen P, Ammonium Acetate (K, Mg, Ca, Na) and M3 (P, B, S, Fe, Mn, Cu, Zn).

 

[Ridgerunner]

^+1

Some chicago soil are very good, but others could be high in pH. If you have hardwater in your area, I would say it is likely that the pH will be high.

If you go with Waypoint Analytical, I would request the SW1 test for alkaline soils at the TN site (not the IL one). It is in their agricultural page instead of the home owner section. It does the Olsen P, Ammonium Acetate (K, Mg, Ca, Na) and M3 (P, B, S, Fe, Mn, Cu, Zn).

Well DUH on me. Great alternative g-man. Do an alkaline test, then if the test reports a pH below 7, contact the lab and pay for a Bray P1 or Mehlich 3 test for the phosphorous.
:thumbup:

 

[g-man]

That's one thing I like about the waypoint SW1, it does the Olsen and M3 P at the same time.

 

[Ridgerunner]

That's one thing I like about the waypoint SW1, it does the Olsen and M3 P at the same time.

So it does. I hadn't noticed that. Waypoint has some nice test packages. I was thinking as most labs have an alkaline test option, that would be a better alternative for comparison shopping between labs.
Any idea what the fee is for that test?

 

[g-man]

It is $26.50.

 

[Suburban Jungle Life]

Once the summer heat breaks and fall starts, I would recommend a double or triple core aeration. Throw down your starter fert, lime/sulfur, seed, and cover the whole thing with a 1/4"-1/2" of peat moss. Keep it damp. You can tell by the color of the peat when it is dry. I've always had great success with germination going this route. By doing a core aeration first, you allow all your amendments to get lower into the soil quickly. As everyone else has recommended, do a soil test but pick a time of year so you can do it at that same time every year. Your results can vary if you test at the end of winter/early spring vs end of summer/early fall.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Looks like he might have been a drive-by. He hasn't logged in since the day of his initial post.

 

[CPA Nerd]

Sorry - not a drive by! I've read all of your posts and I appreciate the advice and input.

Been busy at work, have a sick 7-month old and dealing with a bit of water in my basement! :x

I am going to do a soil test in a few weeks. I put fertilizer down last week, so I want to give it time.

I did notice that some of the spots I seeded are coming in, but only where I had thrown top soil down first and used the prebagged mix of seed, mulch, fertilizer. This again leads me to believe that my soil is the problem.

I believe a good strategy in the fall would be to core aerate the heck out of the lawn, throw down some compost or top soil (I will need 100+ bags :shock: ), then seed and Milorganite fertilizer.

Rather than seed and fertilizer, I was thinking of using the prebagged mix of seed, mulch, fertilizer after putting down the compost or top soil. Bad idea? I have 3-4k square feet that I'd like to do.

Assuming I aerate and then spread compost or top soil across the entire 3-4k square feet, do I then simply overseed and fertilize using a spreader and I'm done? Or would I need to rake it in further AFTER spreading too?

 

[Suburban Jungle Life]

You can use the bagged mix if you want. It just costs more for the same area vs buying it separately. They are giving the homeowner an easy option. For a small area, it's great but for 4K, it might get a bit pricey. As for top soil, I wouldn't bother. Yes, it will help but at a cost and a lot of labor. I would seed and use peat moss for a thin layer. It holds moisture well and a bag goes a long way. If you have a higher ph soil, peat moss is acidic so that helps too... You can build your own top soil through root cycling. Use RGS or something comparable and use organic ferts or top dress with organic matter and in a few years, the soil will be much more rich as well as drain water better. I keep a compost pile for leaves and when I dethatch in the fall and use that to top dress. Free!

 

[Ridgerunner]

Not a problem @CPA Nerd . It's not unusual for people to post an inquiry on a forum and then find the answer they need elsewhere. I've done it a few times myself.

 

[CPA Nerd]

Suburban Jungle Life,

Would aeration be adequate to loosen the soil enough for seeding? My soil is very compacted and hard. Aeration may allow for nutrients and air, but pulling cores wouldn't loosen it any, would it? My concern is that seed would simply just sit on top of the soil and therefore never germinate. That's why I was considering top soil.

Looking forward to some thoughts.

 

[Suburban Jungle Life]

When you core aerate, you leave a lot of holes. Over the next couple weeks, the soil expands to fill up the holes. Now, the compaction has been reduced since you gave the soil space to expand. If you fill the holes, I'm not sure how well the process occurs. Give the soil a good watering and let it dry a bit, then triple aerate. If you have clay, the cores will take many weeks to breakdown and disappear. In the meantime, they will smear and squish as you walk and mow but they will eventually disappear. Now that the soil is more porus, the roots will have an easier time to work in. I use a rake to work the seed into the surface and the peat moss to cover it and retain moisture. If you want the best seed bed ever, you have to use an aerovator or till the soil, then incorporate the seeds into the top layer. I haven't done that but you can get a good result through the core aeration, raking the seed into the top surface, and covering it with something to hold moisture. Over time, if you keep the grass fertilized, growing, and thick, you may not need to aerate again. The roots will grow and aerate the soil and as they die, you will increase the organic matter in the soil and build better and better soil. New roots will keep growing and the process continues. Root cycling! If you want to add top soil, nothing wrong with that. I don't think it's needed though. I wouldn't bother doing that unless you are trying to raise the grade.

 

[social port]

I second @Suburban Jungle Life 's presentation on this.

I don't know of any cool season member who has recently used an aerovator (not saying that no one has done it). That's definitely a tier 3 move.
I used a dethatching machine on a low setting to rough up the soil during my reno. The best outcome came from areas where I cut deepest.