[Greensby]

Hi all, this is my first post on TLF. I've been lurking for a few months and have learned a lot from that alone. Enough so that I finally feel comfortable enough to reno the lawn. Though the actual reno work won't begin until late July (let me know if thats wrong), I figured I would introduce myself and see what everyone thinks of my plan.

I live in Northeast TN (7a/Transition Zone) and currently my yard (about 7150 sq/ft) is a mix of fine fescue, bermuda, some undesirable fescues, and a bunch of broad leaf weeds. I just moved into the house last spring, but didn't really do much with the lawn until this year. So far I have put down some Prodiamine back in early March and have hit the yard with 2 separate apps of 2, 4d. I've had pretty good results so far and can really see the weed pressure starting to die down. Other than that I have just been mowing at 3 inches.

The grasses that I have decided on for the renovation are:

• 30% 4th Millennium TTTF

• 30% Traverse 2 SRP TTTF

• 30% Regenerate TTTF

• 10 % Midnight ***

I was looking at the NTEP trials for my region (Knoxville) and these all performed really well. If anyone has experience with how these perform, I'd love to hear from you.

My plan as of now is:

Kill

• July 21st: Put down first app of Glyphosate

• August 4th: Put down second app of Glyphosate

• August 18th: Spot spray anything (looking at you bermuda) that's still green

Seed Bed Prep - August 31st

• Dethatch. I figure this will pull up a decent amount of the dead grass, as well as pulling up any thatch that is pre-existing. Planning to rent a power rake for this.

• Spread topsoil over yard to 1/4 inch depth, level any areas that may need it. If I have done my math correctly, I'll need about 5.5 cubic yards so I'll probably just get a few truckloads for that.

Seed Down Day - September 1st

• Pretty simple here. Just going to put down seed at 8 lb/M

• Scotts Starter + Weed killer

• Lightly rake over it. One thought I did have here is to rent a roller. I have seen mixed opinions on this, so I would be interested to hear what you guys think

• Give it 10-15 mins of water. I don't have an in ground irrigation system, but I do have a few company's coming by over the next few weeks to give me a quote. Depending on how much it is (and really if I can convince the wife) that might be how I'm watering. However, for now I am just going to assume that I will be using hoses. I am planning on getting about 5 Hunter PGP Ultra Rotor heads and putting them on spikes and a spigot timer. The thinking here is that if (when) I do go the in-ground route, that at least I will be able to use the heads I already have.

Germination

• I'm planning on water 3 times a day (10AM, 1PM, 4 PM) until I start to see sprouts. Since I am using a mix of TTTF and KBG it's a little unclear to me when the best time to back off watering is. The TTTF will germinate much sooner than the KBG, so do I just keep the same watering schedule until the KBG pops and then dial it back?

• After that, twice a day, and then eventually to twice a week.

• I would love any insight on when to do the first mow. Again, due to mixing TTTF and KBG I am assuming that the TTTF will be ready for a mow far sooner than the KBG, but I'm not sure that the KBG will be established enough to hold up to a mowing then. Thoughts?

• After both the TTTF and *** have been mowed, start a fert schedule of .25 lb/M of N a week.

• I'm planning to just continue the Water/Mow/Fert schedule until it is time to winterize.

What Actually Happened

• 7/7 - Hit the heavy bermuda spots with glypho.
• 7/7 - Hit the heavy bermuda spots with glypho.
• 7/21 - First blanket app of glypho
• 8/4 - Hit any remaining green spots with glypho
• 9/14 - Final spot treatment app of glypho
• 9/15 - 9/16 - Spread Topsoil and Compost
• 9/20 - Seed down
  • TTTF at 5lbs/M
  • KBG at 0.8 lbs/M
  • Scott's Starter + Weed Control @ bag rate
• 9/29 - Re-seed thin/washed-out spots
• 10/6 - First mow @ 2.5 inches and fert app at roughly 0.3 lbs of N per M also applied Grub Control and Scott's DiseaseEx (Azoxystrobin) at the curative rate to fight off some Pythium Blight issues.
• 10/13 - Second mow @ 2.5 inches and fert app at roughly 0.3 lbs of N per M
• 10/19 - Third mow @ 2.5 inches and fert app at roughly 0.3 lbs of N per M

 

[social port]

Hi Greensby, and welcome to TLF
I love NE Tenn. Beautiful, mountainous country.

Overall, your plan looks good to me. A couple of suggestions, FWIW.

Didn't see you mention a soil test. Having properly nourished soil will help with the reno. I wish I had acted on my nutritional needs before my reno. Instead, I've been trying to play catch-up with my potassium levels, among other things.

10 % Midnight ***

That's adventurous. I like it. But as I am sure you know, KBG is dicey in the transition zone (though several forum members are doing just fine with it).
Also, lots of people use 4th Millennium.

August 18th: Spot spray anything (looking at you bermuda) that's still green

If you're committed to totally getting rid of it, I'd start spraying as soon as its green (which is probably now). You are going to have a lawn that looks really bad this summer, but bermuda is tenacious. I would go overkill to make sure it dies out, because it goes overkill to stay alive (and also to die and...come back).

Pretty simple here. Just going to put down seed at 8 lb/M

Double-check your rates here. That may be a standard rate; for me, the recommended maximum rate was 6 lb/M (if I recall correctly...)

Scotts Starter + Weed killer

I'm assuming that you mean Scott's starter cut with mesotrione/tenacity? If so, that is definitely the way to go.

One thought I did have here is to rent a roller. I have seen mixed opinions on this, so I would be interested to hear what you guys think

In general, anything that improves seed-to-soil contact is a good thing. The seed roller can definitely do that. With 7K sqft, it might be unnecessary if you have the time/tools/energy to make sure that the seed is resting comfortably in the soil. On the other hand, my roller was inexpensive to rent, fun to maneuver, and provided peace of mind (which sounds irrelevant, but it means a lot during the reno process)

The thinking here is that if (when) I do go the in-ground route, that at least I will be able to use the heads I already have.

.
If you are using hoses and heads, plan out your layout now so that you can ensure even coverage. That will save you time and stress down the road.

I'm planning on water 3 times a day (10AM, 1PM, 4 PM) until I start to see sprouts

That sounds about right, but be prepared to vary depending on temperatures. In my experience, the watering schedule is tricky and may need to be adjusted. The guiding principle should be moist but not overly wet. I'm not sure how to advise regarding KBG and the watering needs during the pout.

 

[ericgautier]

@Greensby sounds like you did your homework. :thumbsup: Plan is solid.

Sharing my journal entries from when I did my backyard (8k) tttf + kbg reno.

8/16 - Seed down!!!

Notes:
- sprayed BLSC + KH
- mixed seeds w/ soil moist. I made 3 passes w/ the tttf @15lbs each pass. Kbg I dumped the whole 9 lbs in the hopper and made 2 passes on low setting.
- rolled
- sprayed sumagrow
- sprayed tenacity
- spread peat moss
- finalized sprinklers. On hose end timer for 6am start every 4 hours for 12 min each zone.

Time to crack open a cold one.

8/17 - Adjusted hose timer run times.. decided to do 14 min per zone @4hour intervals. I shut the water off at night and turn it back on in the morning. So, 6a/10a/2p/6p
8/20 - Decided to adjust start time. Adjusted it to 5am, 4 hour intervals, 12 min per zone and let it run at night. 5a/9a/1p/5p/9p/1a
8/21 - TTTF Germination :yahoo: - http://postimg.cc/image/xz827kezh/
Checked the reno, also seeing some sprouts. - http://postimg.cc/image/5brie9u1b/
8/22 - Seeing some germination on the KBG pots and a lot more green babies in the whole yard.
8/26 - Day 10 pictures - http://postimg.cc/image/p03y9samf/
9/4 - Day 19 picture - http://postimg.cc/image/p0qyi8kov/
9/5 - Oceangro (50 lbs). Spread more seeds on areas that has wash out and on bare spots.
9/9 - Adjusted watering to 2 times per day, 9am/3pm, 14 min run time
9/10 - Mowed @2.5" - http://postimg.cc/image/ba4wsf0ul/

Hope that helps.

 

[vnephologist]

Welcome @Greensby, I see you've done your research. I agree with @social port and @ericgautier that this plan looks really solid, just be ready to adjust timing based on weather conditions. I just have a question and a couple of comments:

Cultivars - what kind of sunlight do you get? 4th Millennium and Traverse 2 should do very well, especially if you have some shade. If you have any areas in full sun, you may want to think about adding Raptor III. Now, for the KBG... it can be done, but will require more water than your TTTF in the transition zone. This may make you more susceptible to Brown Patch and other fungus (but also manageable). Midnight is definitely a solid choice, but you may want to consider Midnight's offspring, Mazama, instead. There are slightly better performing cultivars in the Transition, but they'll be lighter in color than your TTTF unless you want to regularly apply PGR & Iron. Keep in mind that TTTF's quick germination (comparatively) is going to definitely lower your KBG germination and survival (see more below).

Seed Down - I'd highly recommend a peat moss top dress to help keep things moist between watering in the heat. If you decide to stick with the KBG, it might make an interesting experiment to seed it first, then overseed your TTTF in the KBG pout stage with an additional N/Tenacity app. The TTTF needs significantly less time to establish in the Fall. I'll let others weigh-in on this idea though.

 

[Greensby]

Didn't see you mention a soil test. Having properly nourished soil will help with the reno. I wish I had acted on my nutritional needs before my reno. Instead, I've been trying to play catch-up with my potassium levels, among other things.

I completely forgot to mention that. I went through my state university and got one in March. Here are the results:

 

[ericgautier]

I also have a picture trail that I took. At Day 19 you can definitely tell the TTTF is about to take off, but the KBG is not that far behind.

 

[Greensby]

@Greensby sounds like you did your homework. :thumbsup: Plan is solid.

Sharing my journal entries from when I did my backyard (8k) tttf + kbg reno.

8/16 - Seed down!!!

Notes:
- sprayed BLSC + KH
- mixed seeds w/ soil moist. I made 3 passes w/ the tttf @15lbs each pass. Kbg I dumped the whole 9 lbs in the hopper and made 2 passes on low setting.
- rolled
- sprayed sumagrow
- sprayed tenacity
- spread peat moss
- finalized sprinklers. On hose end timer for 6am start every 4 hours for 12 min each zone.

Time to crack open a cold one.

8/17 - Adjusted hose timer run times.. decided to do 14 min per zone @4hour intervals. I shut the water off at night and turn it back on in the morning. So, 6a/10a/2p/6p
8/20 - Decided to adjust start time. Adjusted it to 5am, 4 hour intervals, 12 min per zone and let it run at night. 5a/9a/1p/5p/9p/1a
8/21 - TTTF Germination :yahoo: - http://postimg.cc/image/xz827kezh/
Checked the reno, also seeing some sprouts. - http://postimg.cc/image/5brie9u1b/
8/22 - Seeing some germination on the KBG pots and a lot more green babies in the whole yard.
8/26 - Day 10 pictures - http://postimg.cc/image/p03y9samf/
9/4 - Day 19 picture - http://postimg.cc/image/p0qyi8kov/
9/5 - Oceangro (50 lbs). Spread more seeds on areas that has wash out and on bare spots.
9/9 - Adjusted watering to 2 times per day, 9am/3pm, 14 min run time
9/10 - Mowed @2.5" - http://postimg.cc/image/ba4wsf0ul/

Hope that helps.

I noticed that your seed down date is much earlier than mine. You are much further north, but do you think that I should adjust mine to be a bit earlier? Or is it more of a temperature thing? Should I aim for seed down when I'm consistently getting around 80ish degree days?

 

[ericgautier]

I noticed that your seed down date is much earlier than mine. You are much further north, but do you think that I should adjust mine to be a bit earlier? Or is it more of a temperature thing? Should I aim for seed down when I'm consistently getting around 80ish degree days?

You are right, seed down for you will be different compared to mine. Your original seed down date should be ok.

 

[social port]

If you decide to stick with the KBG, it might make an interesting experiment to seed it first, then overseed your TTTF in the KBG pout stage with an additional N/Tenacity app.

I'm not sure if the label will give guidance on this issue, but I would be hesitant to use tenacity on grass that young. This issue came up in one of my old threads.

 

[Greensby]

Just wanted to give a quick update. My seed came in today. I went with SeedSuperstore's SS1000 mix, which is equal parts 4th Millennium, Traverse 2, and Regenerate TTTF, got 50 lbs. Also decided to add in some Midnight KBG and got 6 lbs of that. Planning on mixing these at a 90/10 TTTF/KBG ratio, which should be about 5lb TTTF to 1 lb KBG by weight.

Peparations are underway for the reno. I was able to get out and set up some of the sprinklers that I'm planning on using. I figured out that I'll need quite a few more heads than I currently have if I want to get good coverage. I ended up just going with the Hunter PGP ultra heads on yard spikes and will be utilizing some spigot timers. Obviously not ideal, but an irrigation system just wasn't in the budget both financially, or time wise this year. Another downside to this is that I'll need quite a bit of hose to chain the sprinklers together. Does anyone know a place to get cheap, decent hose?

Really all that's left to order after the sprinklers and hose is the tenacity, top soil, and to rent the power rake and aerator. I'm still tentively planning on second weekend in September for seed down, but will obviously be playing that one by ear depending on what temps are like.

I final question, for anyone who has done TTTF/KBG in my region, is there any tips you have for me that maybe you wish you would have known before getting started? My biggest concern is that the TTTF will outgrow the KBG and not allow enough sun, but I'm really not sure. Would love to hear your all's thoughts.

 

[social port]

Regarding hoses: I have probably 10 or more of the zeroG hoses sold at Lowe's. I don't know how they compare to others in terms of price, but I have been happy with them. I can't remember having an issue with any of them over the past 10 months. They can kink in a spot or two, but it usually resolves itself quickly. Occasionally, I need to actively address the kink myself.
But I recommend that you look through this thread to see what others are using.
https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1065
If you will have more than 4 hoses, I suggest trying to buy a variety of colors, if you have that option. It might look funny, but having different color hoses can help when you need to untangle them.

Good choice on the midnight!
I can't advise on the problem of growth differences between TTTF and KBG.
I can tell you that I seeded pretty late in September last year (22nd?), and it took a loooong time for the fescue to grow. I didn't even mow until the following spring. FWIW.

 

[Greensby]

Hi all, just wanted to give an update of where the lawn is.

I put down my first app of glypho in early July after someone recommended hitting the bermuda areas extra hard just to be safe. After that I did the first blanket spray and so far so good. I'll be hitting any surviving spots with this weekend, but I feel like I'm on schedule for a mid to late September seed down.

I do have a few questions for the forum though.

1. I decided to go with a 50/50 compost topsoil mix for my seed bed. At first I was planning on just spreading all of the soil by hand via wheel barrows, but I'm really starting to question that now. I knew that moving that much dirt would be a lot of work, but after digging out a few mulch circles under my trees and moving all that dirt, I'm really starting to question if its the best option. Any feedback here?

2. How early is too early to de-thatch and core aerate? It seems like the vast majority of lawn journals that I've looked at save this step for when they are putting seed down. Is there a reason for this, or could I go ahead and knock out this step?

3. Last question is around irrigation. My setup right now is 13 Hunter PGP-Ultra heads that are on yard spikes. All are connected to an orbit spigot timer. Obviously this is not ideal, but irrigation was out of the question for this year. I'm not worried about that part of the setup very much because I've seen multiple lawn journals of people who had similar setups that got great results. My concern is that I don't feel like I'm putting much water down. I'm not sure if I'm disrupting the stream too much/too little or what, but it feels like it will take a looong time to get the amount of water I'll need to keep the soil moist.

So far, I've adjusted each head to have the proper (I think) nozzle on them. For example, if I have two heads on the same line and one turns 180 degress and the other roughly 45 degrees, the one that turns 45 degrees has a nozzle that is half the GPM of the 180 degree nozzle. I'm having a hard time judging what a good stream out of the sprinkler looks like. What should I be looking for? It feels like I should avoid have too much of a "stream" coming out of the sprinkler, and that I should be going for more of a "spray", but I would love some insight on this topic. I know that I just need to get out and measure how much water is going down (planning to this weekend), but just figured I would ask.

If you actually read all of this, then thank you! For everyone else, here are some pictures of the glypho going to work.

 

[STL]

Hi and welcome! Looks like you have a good plan so far and put in a lot of work! I'll throw in my two cents and suggestions, having done two renos already and working on my third in the backyard.

1. Are you intending to put down the 50/50 mix on the soil and then seed into that? Unless you need to grade or level, and if it were me, I'd just seed into the soil you have and top dress with good, finished compost or peat moss. The 50/50 sounds like a lot of work, especially if you're going to top dress again anyways.

2. I like doing soil and dethatch work early so I can then leave the soil alone and fallow before seed down. Fallowing is where you water like you would at seeding, but with no seed yet, to try and revive the dead lawn and germinate weed seeds and then let additional glyphosate apps do it's job killing everything. The last thing you want is half dead Bermuda coming back to life after you seed. Having said that, I'm no Bermuda expert so I can't comment on the best way to kill it or how it would interact with aerating or detaching, other than make sure it's dead! Like really dead! It looks like you may have some green in there from the pics. Also, are you going to scalp/bag mow low with your mower to get rid of the dead material?

3. How many PGPs do you have Daisy chained to each valve of your timer? You may want to make sure your hose spigot gpm and pressure can accommodate how many you have hooked up to one line.

 

[Greensby]

@STL

Thanks for the response!

1. I was intending to put the 50/50 mix over the existing soil. The thinking was that it would provide a nice seed bed as well as act as a boost for some nice, loose, nutrient rich soil. I wasn't planning on top dressing with anything, as I think the 50/50 mix will be enough. At least that was the idea!

2. Yeah that was my thinking as well, not sure of a reason why you wouldn't be able to do de-thatch and aerate a few weeks before you put seed down. To answer your question about scalp/mow, yeah, I was going to do that before I de-thatch for sure, and then right before I begin the soil and seed work. (if i needs it)

3. Two PGPs per chain. I measured about 7 GPM out of the spigot. I haven't bought a pressure meter yet to know what that is. Two heads seems to be about the limit per cahin to keep what I consider an acceptable throw distance.

 

[STL]

@Greensby No problem. Take any suggestions as just that and at the end of the day do what you feel is best.

1. I'm biased towards topdressing. It's worked much better for me than the places I was not able to top dress because I ran out of material. YMMV, but I like it because it helps keep the soil, seed, and young roots moist without having to rely on too much water. We still have a lot of potentially hot days even into September in the transition zone.

2. Sounds good to me.

3. Maybe do an irrigation audit by putting out several tuna cans or other small flat bottom and side containers and measure what you get after watering for a set period of time to see if you're getting even coverage. I'd be OK with longer run times if everything was even. You definitely want to get your water squared away out the gate if you can.

 

[Greensby]

Ran into what might be an issue..

I've been fallowing for about 3 weeks now and I've started to see what I think are wild onions? Should I be worried about these? The lawn was overrun with them last winter and spring, and I was planning on putting down some pre-m to fight em, but I didn't expect that they would come back in the summer. Advice would be much appreciated.



Edit: Just to be clear, they aren't just in this one spot. They are scattered throughout the yard.

 

[social port]

@Greensby That is probably wild garlic. I had a mass of them come up during my reno last year. Another fellow from Tennessee had the same problem during a reno last year.

It's a tough one to kill. I believe some of the warm season fellows like Image for wild garlic, but you would need to check the label to see if it could be used now relative to your seeding date.

Also, check this thread. It looks like Trimec with a surfactant is another option. See also LawnNerd's comment regarding how non-threatening they are for establishing your grass. https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1277&p=23036&hilit=wild+onion+garlic#p23036

 

[STL]

Hit em with glyphosate. Tenacity and actually weed b gone max will work too when you have grass. They may come back next year but they'll be weaker. Pre em will not work because the grow from a bulb.

 

[g-man]

Hit them with glyphosate. If you have time, dig the bulb out.

 

[Greensby]

Thanks for all the suggestions guys. I'll be hitting them with glypho tomorrow when I do my (hopefully) last glypho spot spray. Seeding time is quickly approaching!