[phil]

I'm overseeding right after Labor Day and need some recommendations for a dense shade lawn.

I'm in upstate New York in the Albany area and have lots of tall white oaks around my house. I get maybe 3-5 hours of full sunlight per day in the front and back and the rest filtered light through the oak trees.

Someone on the forum recommended TTTF and similar grass types a while back. I've been looking at Jonathan Green's Black Beauty for Dense Shade which is a lot of tall and fine fescue.

http://www.jonathangreen.com/product/dense-shade-grass-seed-mixture.html

Is this good stuff or should I go with only TTTF from a different company?

 

[j4c11]

Do you have a lot of PRG in there? It's allelopathic and can inhibit newly germinated grass.

 

[phil]

I have a mix but with plenty of PRG for sure. And with the shade situation the PRG thins out so much. I'd really hate to have to make that my main grass type....

 

[Fronta1]

Nothing wrong with that seed. Tttf and fine fescue are best for shade.

 

[phil]

Do you have a lot of PRG in there? It's allelopathic and can inhibit newly germinated grass.

So @j4c11 if I overseed with TTTF would I see reduced germination as a result or little to no germination at all?

PRG looks nice, I admit, but with my shade issue it just doesn't work well for me.

 

[vnephologist]

The one caution I'll give you is that I picked up this same seed back in the Spring to temporarily cover trenches from irrigation until I renovated this Fall and there was one TTTF cultivar that had really large wide blades that grew VERY fast. I'm not sure which one it was, but I can snap a photo of it if you'd like. Also, I know that fine fescue is often recommended for the shade, but keep in mind that it can have a tendency to quickly go dormant in any kind of heat and is super persistent. I really hate its dormancy and really wish I had never introduced it into my lawn. I'm much farther south than you, so perhaps someone farther north can comment on its tendency for summer dormancy up your way. If I were you though, I'd just find a couple of shade hardy TTTF cultivars.

[Edited to add 2016 NTEP Carbondale IL top 10]
Here's the top 10 TTTF cultivars from the prelim 2016 results in Carbondale IL (IL2) grown under shade. I'm researching these for myself and will be glad to post back availability if you're interested.

 

[MarkAguglia]

I'm in western NY, PRG grows excellent in the shade. It's my nicest area of grass.

 

[phil]

@MarkAguaglia Really? I keep reading that it isn't ideal for shade or our wonderful upstate NY cold? I think it looks really nice, but I've assumed I needed to overseed with something else...

 

[phil]

Ok I bought 50 pounds of Jonathan Green Black Beauty Ultra. I skipped the Dense Shade mix.

I see mixed reviews. But I also spent a bit more than half what I would have at the seed super store, but that's almost irrelevant considering how much money I've spent already this year.

Good seed choice? Anyone have experience with it?

 

[vnephologist]

I was just at my local hardware store for some glue and swung through the grass seed section and saw they carry the full Jonathan Green line. What I noticed is that every single blend was a majority of Taos and Tonto tall fescue mixed with various other things. What was in yours? Personally, I'd resist the impulse to grab what's in front of me and instead order a mix of Traverse and 4th Millennium from Preferred. I know that's easier said than done, considering I came really close to ignoring my own advice and grabbing a bag of Raptor, Titanium, and Firecracker seed on the shelf. ;-)

 

[Fronta1]

Raptor, Titanium, and Firecracker seed on the shelf. ;-)

Where from?

 

[vnephologist]

Raptor, Titanium, and Firecracker seed on the shelf. ;-)

Where from?

At my local independent hardware store. Looks to be marketed as Southern Belle. Custom blended by Mountain View and distributed by Turf & Garden out of Chesapeake, VA. Blue tagged as well. If you can't order online, I'd be happy to grab a bag and ship to you if needed. Just hit me via PM.

 

[Fronta1]

Raptor, Titanium, and Firecracker seed on the shelf. ;-)

Where from?

At my local independent hardware store. Looks to be marketed as Southern Belle. Custom blended by Mountain View and distributed by Turf & Garden out of Chesapeake, VA. Blue tagged as well. If you can't order online, I'd be happy to grab a bag and ship to you if needed. Just hit me via PM.

I appreciate that

 

[phil]

Here's the label. I can still return it!!

 

[phil]

I can't find any good pictures of tonto specifically. Is it an undesirable type? I really don't want to get into the wide ugly fescue that some people warned about...

 

[Fronta1]

Other crop is grassy weeds like poa annua and crabgrass. There are 225,000 seeds/lb of fescue and 1,200,000 seeds/lb of bluegrass...

Edit: Actually what matters is the seeds/lb of the undesirables, 800,000/lb for crabgrass, 2,000,000/lb for poa annua

Edit#2 So there's possibly 20k poa annua

 

[vnephologist]

I doubt any of those fescue varieties will be wide and ugly. My research tells me that they were all developed quite some time ago. That isn't necessarily a bad thing either. However, they won't possess any of the latest qualities bred into more recent cultivars to help them better resist disease, for example. The bag also contains undesirables as Fronta1 indicated. Ultimately, whenever I'm faced with a decision like this, I try to think about how I'll feel about it 6 months from now. Will I look back on it and wish I had taken an additional week to find better seed?

 

[phil]

Ok I'll return this and get something higher end from seed super store or someplace like that.

So now I need to decide if I want to go heavy on the fine fecues or tall fescues. The blends for shady areas in the northeast are all predominantly if not completely fine fescues, which I don't really prefer.

I was looking at this https://www.seedsuperstore.com/catalog/p-100073/ss1002-tall-fescue-shade-blend

Site describes being south of the Mason Dixon - which I am certainly not - but will I be ok with this blend anyway? I prefer that for the specific look that blend will provide.

 

[Roosterchest]

I was just at my local hardware store for some glue and swung through the grass seed section and saw they carry the full Jonathan Green line. What I noticed is that every single blend was a majority of Taos and Tonto tall fescue mixed with various other things. What was in yours? Personally, I'd resist the impulse to grab what's in front of me and instead order a mix of Traverse and 4th Millennium from Preferred. I know that's easier said than done, considering I came really close to ignoring my own advice and grabbing a bag of Raptor, Titanium, and Firecracker seed on the shelf. ;-)

I agree--check out the NTEP trials for 4th Millennium.

 

[phil]

I'm looking at it right now. Looks really nice and has some attractive benefits. I'm still looking for a place to order it online. Seed Super Store has 3rd Millenium.

Do you recommend overseeding with a single cultivar instead of a blend? I already have a blend in the lawn so I guess it really doesn't matter anyway....