[Colonel K0rn]

I have the blessing from the wife to get irrigation installed :banana: , and have contacted one installer thus far who came out on Monday to look at the lot and come back with a quote. I'll preface this with saying that I did read some of the Irrigation Tutorials, and I think I got halfway through and then got sidetracked.

I told him I wanted to evaluate using MP Rotators as well as the Hunter PGP heads. He said that my run time is going to be much longer using the MP Rotators vs. using Rotors, and wanted to know what I had against using rotors. I told him that I liked the coverage that those gave, and of course, I was thinking about the tests that Hunter did with the MP's after torture testing them(which was pretty impressive). Of course, I don't plan on dumping shovel fulls of sand in my supply lines He countered with the fact that it would take 99 minutes of run time(exaggerated) compared to 20 minutes for a zone that would be covered by rotors, as well as the increased cost with more heads. Frankly, I don't care about run time, I just care about the amount of water being put down. Also, I'm planning on extending the flower bed in front of the house to around the South side of the house, and tying in my drip irrigation that I already have in place.

At this time, I don't plan on irrigating the back yard, but would like to have the option to do so in the future, so maybe adding a supply line to the back, and capping it off where I can expand in the future. Right now, the dogs run around there, and I'd have a hard time getting grass to grow where they're making it a dirt track. He's a respected installer(verified by my manager friend at Site One), and has been in business locally for 15 years. The quote I received didn't have any details as far as head placement, valve boxes placement, supply tap, shutoff placement, clock type, etc. to which I replied that I'm going to need more detail to properly evaluate his quote (meaning run it by you guys).

FWIW, my front yard is 4,668 sq ft, the back yard is 6,530 sqft.

Install irrigation system as discussed on 3/19
- System will include shut off valve, back flow prevention and timer to be located either
on side of garage or back garden shed.
- Front yard only, irrigated with HUNTER MP ROTATOR style heads
total price to include all materials and labor = $ 2,960.00
- Front yard only, irrigated with mixture HUNTER PGP/ MP ROTATOR style heads
total price to include all materials and labor = $ 2,580.00
- Back yard only, irrigated with HUNTER MP ROTATOR style heads
total price to include all materials and labor = $ 1,940.00
- Oasis Irrigation is not responsible for any damage to wiring/pipes/conduits for all
utilities, satellite tv, computers and building additions after a utility located has been
completed.

So, can the hivemind provide me some guidance on what to ask this guy, as well as what kinds of things I should look for, and other guidance?

 

[chrismar]

I think you're on the right path. Get the deets (# of zones, map with your property and those zones, etc). Did he do a flow/pressure test to assess the GPM and how many heads each zone can support? He should if he didn't.

 

[Ware]

Just to give you an idea, MP Rotators with proper head to head spacing put down about 0.4 in/hr. The precipitation rate of the PGP's depend on what nozzle you are using. They both have their pros/cons and I wouldn't say one is necessarily better than the other - it really depends more on the size/shape of the lawn. With 11k total, I don't think you would run into runtime issues with the MP Rotators - definitely not if you only do the front.

 

[Colonel K0rn]

I think you're on the right path. Get the deets (# of zones, map with your property and those zones, etc). Did he do a flow/pressure test to assess the GPM and how many heads each zone can support? He should if he didn't.

He didn't, but I did tell him what my pressure was, but that's all that I told him as far as what it would support.

Just to give you an idea, MP Rotators with proper head to head spacing put down about 0.4 in/hr. The precipitation rate of the PGP's depend on what nozzle you are using. They both have their pros/cons and I wouldn't say one is necessarily better than the other - it really depends more on the size/shape of the lawn. With 11k total, I don't think you would run into runtime issues with the MP Rotators - definitely not if you only do the front.

Frankly, run time on the MP Rotators isn't really a concern for me, since I'll be setting the irrigation time to run before sunup. I mean, I could care less how long it's running when I'm asleep. The question is, if it's running for 2 hours to irrigate the whole front yard, is that time that it's running going to get the water that I'm paying for in the ground? Of course it is. I'd think it's a moot point of how long the system runs, however for all of the zones to be irrigated, I can see that if I'm only getting .4" per hour watered in per zone, that might be a long time for the whole system to be on to make sure everything is irrigated. Am I thinking correctly?

 

[Ware]

...Am I thinking correctly?

Yes.

 

[SCGrassMan]

1.) Get the Rachio controller (theres a thread here about the gen 3 hardware and a discount code)
2.) Get the MP Rotary heads. Yes it will take longer to water - thats because they are lower usage (less GPM) heads. Big water droplets instead of smaller water droplets.
3.) For front and back yard, without the controller, 3k square feet I paid about $3200. Add another $200 in for the controller. I think 5k all in is extremely fair.

References! Read up on Yelp/Google/Talk to prior customers.
Also, offer 10% less. He may take it! He may not... but always try! "If you'll do it for $4500 I'll sign it today".

Just my free opinion, and worth every penny.

 

[g-man]

Get a layout in paper with location of heads, valves, boxes, etc.

 

[SCGrassMan]

+1

 

[Budstl]

Here's an example of my layout. 24 hunter roters and 12 pop ups. Cost was just under 4,000.

 

[Colonel K0rn]

I sent the following reply to him.

J,
Thanks for the quote. Would you be able to provide me with a BOM for what you plan to use for the installation, as well as some details for head placement, valve boxes, supply tap, shutoff placement, etc? I'm going to need some more detail to evaluate your quote.

Thanks,
M

Seems like a reasonable request, don't you think?

Here's the response I received.

Mark,
Ive been doing this for over 15 years and I think my record speaks for itself. The information you want is really not possible as the system comes together when we start digging and seeing whats in the ground and where. Its really impossible to tell you locations for everything until we actually get started. Plus I have been burned in the past drawing up exact plans and than had those bid out to the lowest bidder.

So ive given you all the info I am prepared to. If that rules me out thats fine I understand.

Initially, my response was

After reading it a few times, and telling my wife, I'm not like this

I guess he really doesn't need the work. My wife and I are new residential redevelopers and I always have a Scope of Work for any of my contractors who do any work for us, as well as contracts that are signed that are pretty ironclad. If he can't give me any idea of the work he's going to do, how do I know he did the work I'm paying him for? That's pretty stupid.

 

[Ware]

I think those guys just get lazy because most of their customers think the system is doing its job if the grass is wet.

 

[chrismar]

Hah. Buh-bye. Guess he doesn't want your $.

Find someone who knows what they're doing and is willing to provide you with the info you want. Don't waste your time on this joker.

 

[Ware]

I designed my own system using the info on Irrigation Tutorials, then had the installer bid that design - so I knew I was getting exactly what I wanted. You could always go that route.

 

[Ware]

I even had all the head locations measured off and flagged when they showed up.

 

[SCGrassMan]

I got a similar response from my guy... I can understand that gut reflex, but as an "IT Guy" I can also understand his point of view. Ultimately, the price was what I was willing to pay, and I felt comfortable when I talked with him that he knew what he was doing.

He pushed back on my "input" frequently enough that I felt he knew what he was doing.

If you like the guy, and think the price is fair, ask for references, and current pics of places where hes put in irrigation a couple years ago. You'll be able to tell by the pics if its been irrigated properly, and talk to prior customers.

If he doesn't want to provide at least 3 happy customers, then I'd say walk.

 

[Colonel K0rn]

I even had all the head locations measured off and flagged when they showed up.

Yeah, I'm thinking I'm going to go that route.

Another thing is that if you've been "burned" by customers who asked for designs and had them outsourced, then that's on you as the business owner. You can charge the potential customer a "Consultation Fee/Design Charge" which would be credited toward the installation should you use the designer's service. No different than taking your car to the dealership to get that ABS/Check Engine light looked at, and paying a diagnostic charge.

 

[g-man]

If you go the route of your design, post it and we could review and give you ideas. There are plenty of us that have done our own that could help with this part. Once you have it designed, then you could ask for quotes to build to your plans.

 

[Colonel K0rn]

Just sent this response. :lol:

J,
So in other words, you don't want to give me any information about how you would design my system, and just pay you blindly? I'm sorry you feel that way, because I'm not in the business of writing checks to any contractor that I hire, whether it be for work on one of my business properties that we renovate or my personal residence. When I have a contractor bid on work for one of my projects, I have a Scope of Work with SKU's and primary & secondary sources available for them to bid upon. We also use milestones for payment of work. I usually have done a lot of legwork for them, and it makes the bidding easy. With a job like this, of course the milestone for payment would be upon completion. Perhaps I should have communicated that better with you as far as explaining my expectations, but I guess I was wrong to expect more than a quote.

Furthermore, I have no idea what your record is, because you haven't provided me with any references, other than the fact you state you have 15 years of experience. Can you provide me with references so I can verify those myself?

In this situation, we discussed the options with equipment that I would like to have put in place, and what your suggestions would be. To propose that the system "comes together" when the ground is broken is silly. I'm not in the business of going into any agreement with blind faith in the contractor/installer, as I too, have been burned. However, something to think about would be to charge a "Design Fee" and provide credit for that fee to the customer should they hire you to do the work.Perhaps this is something you should consider, so your time isn't put into something you won't earn income from.

If this sounds like something you're interested in moving forward with, feel free to provide me with at least 3 references of installs done over a year ago, and some design ideas on paper, then we can move on. Otherwise, I'll move on to another installer who can be more accomodating for my personal residence as well as the multiple properties we renovate throughout the year.

Regards,
M

The wife says that a contractor who is stonewalling you on getting the quote isn't even worth me sending this long of an email to.

Edit: I got a response from him about 10 minutes ago.

No thanks I'll pass.
Good luck!

 

[SCGrassMan]

Listen to the wife

 

[kds]

Another thing is that if you've been "burned" by customers who asked for designs and had them outsourced, then that's on you as the business owner. You can charge the potential customer a "Consultation Fee/Design Charge" which would be credited toward the installation should you use the designer's service.

That was exactly my thought when I read the response. He would do this if he was a smart businessman. It's not very transparent, either.