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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello everyone,

I recently joined the forum from Grass Daddy's YouTube recommendation, thanks. 馃憤馃徏

I live in NJ and of course like everyone in here I have a lawn addiction! 馃槣

I have about 6,000 sq. ft. of TTTF.

The reason for this post was for competetive pricing for Serenade and Companion bio fungicides.

Has anyone found these products cheaper including shipping than what Amazon offers? I did a search of this forum and couldn't find too much. Since my lawn is rather smaller I didn't want to buy in bulk or gallons and gallons of anything.

Along the same topic, Serenade and Companion are the same bacteria just different strains is there a "stronger or better" one if you had to pick just one? When I spoke with the Companion rep. he of course said that his was much better and that it should be used with a synthetic fungicide where as the Serenade rep. read from the label and couldn't tell you much more about their product.

Thanks.
 

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I just bought 2.5 gallons of Serenade from Seven Springs Farm for $95. Quart size is $14.25. Shipping is extra ($16 for my very heavy jug, which I thought was reasonable). This big jug has an application rate for turfgrass, which isn't listed on the smaller bottles. It's 2-6 qt/ac, which works out to 0.18-0.55 cup/K. You would use a larger amount when there is disease pressure, a smaller amount when everything is looking good. I am going to have to figure it a way to lift this thing and pour, maybe set it up on a chair. it's too heavy to hold with one arm.
 

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I posted in regards to this issue on the other forum as well. The bacteria found in these products doubles every 30 minutes if provided with the right condition. I'm not a biologist but it seems like it should be possible to:

- take a Lowe's bucket, wipe the inside with some alcohol, pour in some water, some chlorine neutralizer and a bit of beef broth
- add a small amount of the product(endospores?) and let it sit for 24 hours
- would it need some sort of agitation/aeration? Don't know.

If the conditions are right, that bacteria should start munching away at the protein and multiplying. If it doubles every 30 minutes then you would have ~60 times the amount of bacteria you started with in only a few hours, lowering your cost per app significantly. Yes, there will probably be other bacteria hitching a ride in there, but we're not trying to obtain a pure culture.

One would need to purchase a microscope and a staining kit to determine whether the procedure is effective. I looked into it and the kit was about $40 on Amazon, since I just apply fungicide it's not worth the investment to me. But if you're into organic it may pay itself off fairly quickly.
 

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Virginiagal said:
I just bought 2.5 gallons of Serenade from Seven Springs Farm for $95. ($16 for my very heavy jug, which I thought was reasonable).

You would use a larger amount when there is disease pressure, a smaller amount when everything is looking good.
+1. :thumbup:

LD, just get the 2.5 gallon jug. You can get 13 apps @4oz/k (less if you need to use larger amounts or shorter times in between sprayings).

IE: The past 3 weeks, I've been spraying @4oz/k every weekend because I feel conditions need it. Better to have Serenade on the ready than to wait for shipping especially for a bio regimen.
 

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Welcome to the forum and fantastic looking lawn! Post that pic in the lawn pics thread if you'd like.

What I've found with both products is you won't find cheaper sources for the quart size. I looked everywhere and jglongisland confirmed I would need to get the 2.5 gallon jugs to lower cost.

My experience with these two are mixed. I think Serenade does work fine at helping 'control' foliar diseases; companion for soil based diseases. Figure out which problem you have and go with that bio.

The reason the guy mentioned using together with synthetics is because that's basically what they're made for. They're designed to reduce the use of synthetics in high input turf. I did the Companion regimen proactively for 2 years (although not at super high frequency) and noticed no difference in summer patch kill. I also did Serenade proactively (albeit not rigorously) and still got rust outbreaks. If you really have a major disease lurking in your soil, I don't believe Companion will do much without the addition of synthetics.

With TTTF you're biggest threat is probably Brown Patch. Serenade doesn't list that on the label but Companion does. You would need to use Companion foliar apps.
 

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j4c11 said:
I posted in regards to this issue on the other forum as well. The bacteria found in these products doubles every 30 minutes if provided with the right condition. I'm not a biologist but it seems like it should be possible to:

- take a Lowe's bucket, wipe the inside with some alcohol, pour in some water, some chlorine neutralizer and a bit of beef broth
- add a small amount of the product(endospores?) and let it sit for 24 hours
- would it need some sort of agitation/aeration? Don't know.

If the conditions are right, that bacteria should start munching away at the protein and multiplying. If it doubles every 30 minutes then you would have ~60 times the amount of bacteria you started with in only a few hours, lowering your cost per app significantly. Yes, there will probably be other bacteria hitching a ride in there, but we're not trying to obtain a pure culture.

One would need to purchase a microscope and a staining kit to determine whether the procedure is effective. I looked into it and the kit was about $40 on Amazon, since I just apply fungicide it's not worth the investment to me. But if you're into organic it may pay itself off fairly quickly.
That is an interesting idea... I think you would need the air bubbler like making compost tea..
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Virginiagal said:
I just bought 2.5 gallons of Serenade from Seven Springs Farm for $95. Quart size is $14.25. Shipping is extra ($16 for my very heavy jug, which I thought was reasonable). This big jug has an application rate for turfgrass, which isn't listed on the smaller bottles. It's 2-6 qt/ac, which works out to 0.18-0.55 cup/K. You would use a larger amount when there is disease pressure, a smaller amount when everything is looking good. I am going to have to figure it a way to lift this thing and pour, maybe set it up on a chair. it's too heavy to hold with one arm.
Great thanks for the tip. :thumbup:
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
j4c11 said:
I posted in regards to this issue on the other forum as well. The bacteria found in these products doubles every 30 minutes if provided with the right condition. I'm not a biologist but it seems like it should be possible to:

- take a Lowe's bucket, wipe the inside with some alcohol, pour in some water, some chlorine neutralizer and a bit of beef broth
- add a small amount of the product(endospores?) and let it sit for 24 hours
- would it need some sort of agitation/aeration? Don't know.

If the conditions are right, that bacteria should start munching away at the protein and multiplying. If it doubles every 30 minutes then you would have ~60 times the amount of bacteria you started with in only a few hours, lowering your cost per app significantly. Yes, there will probably be other bacteria hitching a ride in there, but we're not trying to obtain a pure culture.

One would need to purchase a microscope and a staining kit to determine whether the procedure is effective. I looked into it and the kit was about $40 on Amazon, since I just apply fungicide it's not worth the investment to me. But if you're into organic it may pay itself off fairly quickly.
Sounds like a big science experiment but interesting idea. lol Thanks.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
ericgautier said:
Virginiagal said:
I just bought 2.5 gallons of Serenade from Seven Springs Farm for $95. ($16 for my very heavy jug, which I thought was reasonable).

You would use a larger amount when there is disease pressure, a smaller amount when everything is looking good.
+1. :thumbup:

LD, just get the 2.5 gallon jug. You can get 13 apps @4oz/k (less if you need to use larger amounts or shorter times in between sprayings).

IE: The past 3 weeks, I've been spraying @4oz/k every weekend because I feel conditions need it. Better to have Serenade on the ready than to wait for shipping especially for a bio regimen.
Hey pal, I've been applying it too but I actually added a synthetic fungicide (Bayleton 1%) about a week ago and wanted to keep with the Serenade to see how it performs. I also added SOP about a month ago and adding another 10lbs to make 25lbs total (soil test called for it). I was thinking with that program I should be good but last week I got Red Thread.

Have you got any signs of disease at all and did you mix in Companion this time?
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
LIgrass said:
Welcome to the forum and fantastic looking lawn! Post that pic in the lawn pics thread if you'd like.

What I've found with both products is you won't find cheaper sources for the quart size. I looked everywhere and jglongisland confirmed I would need to get the 2.5 gallon jugs to lower cost.

My experience with these two are mixed. I think Serenade does work fine at helping 'control' foliar diseases; companion for soil based diseases. Figure out which problem you have and go with that bio.

The reason the guy mentioned using together with synthetics is because that's basically what they're made for. They're designed to reduce the use of synthetics in high input turf. I did the Companion regimen proactively for 2 years (although not at super high frequency) and noticed no difference in summer patch kill. I also did Serenade proactively (albeit not rigorously) and still got rust outbreaks. If you really have a major disease lurking in your soil, I don't believe Companion will do much without the addition of synthetics.

With TTTF you're biggest threat is probably Brown Patch. Serenade doesn't list that on the label but Companion does. You would need to use Companion foliar apps.
Thanks for your input. What you're saying is interesting because I sent a tissue sample this season to Rutgers Lab and told them my program. The scientist basically said that Serenade is worthless and is only 30% effective. I did apply the Serenade this season and I got Red Thread recently so I don't know either. I did look at the label and it covers Brown Patch (whether it really works or not, I don't know yet).

How do you know what diseases are soil and foliar based? Is there a good site to use? I typically get Red Thread, Brown Patch, Dollar Spot and Leaf Spot. If I spray Serenade and water it in can't it be used to treat soil based and if I let it sit on the leaves it would treat foliar? If I sprayed it and let it sit for 24 hours then watered it in I can treat both - foliar and soil? My line of thinking on that is Companion is the same AI just different strain so they should do the same or I should say at least similar.
 

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I'm no turf disease/fungicide expert, but here is a table from Ohio State that does a good job of breaking down the different fungicide families and their characteristics (contact vs systemic, etc).

I've also found that NC State has some great info on turf diseases, which typically includes a table of recommended fungicides - tiered by efficacy. Example: Red Thread

Finally, not trying to derail this thread, but wanted to let you know I just posted this lawn to the TLF facebook and twitter pages. :thumbup:


 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Ware said:
I'm no turf disease/fungicide expert, but here is a table from Ohio State that does a good job of breaking down the different fungicide families and their characteristics (contact vs systemic, etc).

I've also found that NC State has some great info on turf diseases, which typically includes a table of recommended fungicides - tiered by efficacy. Example: Red Thread

Finally, not trying to derail this thread, but wanted to let you know I just posted this lawn to the TLF facebook and twitter pages. :thumbup:


Great, thanks for those links and posting my pic. I found your FB page and following it now. Good stuff! :thumbup:
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Virginiagal said:
A video on Serenade's mode of action:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=%23&ved=0ahUKEwin9cPR0qvUAhUBTD4KHXxSClwQwqsBCCEwAA&usg=AFQjCNF1sHlk2z9QIx28jtvfnGP_UlkifA&sig2=1uh4O7pewc_EZSyVG9a48w
I tried opening the video on my Iphone and my desktop computer but no luck with the link. Does it work on your end?
 

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Lawndad said:
Hey pal, I've been applying it too but I actually added a synthetic fungicide (Bayleton 1%) about a week ago and wanted to keep with the Serenade to see how it performs. I also added SOP about a month ago and adding another 10lbs to make 25lbs total (soil test called for it). I was thinking with that program I should be good but last week I got Red Thread.

Have you got any signs of disease at all and did you mix in Companion this time?
How many times have you sprayed Serenade and at what rate/k?

No signs yet. :crossing fingers: I decided not to mix Companion this year. I wanted to, but the lawn budget is dried out. :lol:
 

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Let's not forget our mycorrhizae fungi. For anyone reading not familiar with them, here's a good introductory article:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://puyallup.wsu.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/403/2015/03/mycorrhizae.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwi275eJ9qvUAhVMGj4KHSfhCFwQFggdMAA&usg=AFQjCNEcn7Wln6Qt_pK3DIf5KkJtnXOKJg&sig2=sa_sVni-cMgqLrdU5stmdA

Serenade works better with a fungicide added. I am using it alone. There is some information out there on fungicides that are the least inhibitory to the mycorrhizae:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.planthealthcare.com/pdf/Myconate/Fungicide%2520effects%2520on%2520Mycorrhizal%2520Fungi%2520and%2520Root%2520Colonization%25208-2009.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwjp4bTy8qvUAhVKdT4KHZdmAVoQFggwMAM&usg=AFQjCNF2M7SX8W0ybB8qFCUoYR8hF5RBHA&sig2=T33y7mJ1stmx8Q9bcfks-Q

http://www.lebanonturf.com/education/fungicide-effects-on-mycorrhizae

If you have a choice of fungicides, it would be better to use one least toxic to the mycorrhizae if it would be effective for your disease.
 

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Lawndad said:
LIgrass said:
Welcome to the forum and fantastic looking lawn! Post that pic in the lawn pics thread if you'd like.

What I've found with both products is you won't find cheaper sources for the quart size. I looked everywhere and jglongisland confirmed I would need to get the 2.5 gallon jugs to lower cost.

My experience with these two are mixed. I think Serenade does work fine at helping 'control' foliar diseases; companion for soil based diseases. Figure out which problem you have and go with that bio.

The reason the guy mentioned using together with synthetics is because that's basically what they're made for. They're designed to reduce the use of synthetics in high input turf. I did the Companion regimen proactively for 2 years (although not at super high frequency) and noticed no difference in summer patch kill. I also did Serenade proactively (albeit not rigorously) and still got rust outbreaks. If you really have a major disease lurking in your soil, I don't believe Companion will do much without the addition of synthetics.

With TTTF you're biggest threat is probably Brown Patch. Serenade doesn't list that on the label but Companion does. You would need to use Companion foliar apps.
Thanks for your input. What you're saying is interesting because I sent a tissue sample this season to Rutgers Lab and told them my program. The scientist basically said that Serenade is worthless and is only 30% effective. I did apply the Serenade this season and I got Red Thread recently so I don't know either. I did look at the label and it covers Brown Patch (whether it really works or not, I don't know yet).

How do you know what diseases are soil and foliar based? Is there a good site to use? I typically get Red Thread, Brown Patch, Dollar Spot and Leaf Spot. If I spray Serenade and water it in can't it be used to treat soil based and if I let it sit on the leaves it would treat foliar? If I sprayed it and let it sit for 24 hours then watered it in I can treat both - foliar and soil? My line of thinking on that is Companion is the same AI just different strain so they should do the same or I should say at least similar.
I usually just look up the disease to find out which one it is. I believe all the ones you mentioned are foliar. I couldn't find a link with the type of chart you're looking for (that would be handy).
I used to think it worked the same way; spray foliar and then water it in after to get the best of both apps, but I'm fairly certain the soil apps need to be watered in immediately to get the bacteria to the root zone. I don't know what the exact differences in the AI are but I do recall that Companion did nothing for my rust while Serenade definitely slowed it down.

http://www.greencastonline.com/tools/pestoutlooks.aspx
 
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