[pop3dump]

Hey folks,

To all the Carbon Pro G users. How often are you putting it down or supposed to put it down? I searched the forum for some answers but couldn't find anything concrete. The bag states to use 10lb per 1000sq ft on initial application and then 5lb per 1000sqft for maintenance.

The question is, how often does one do maintenance?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Mightyquinn]

Ron Henry(who profits off you applying it) recommends monthly applications as long as the ground isn’t frozen. I think he even said to apply as much as your bank account can handle. I may be paraphrasing a little.
I think if you omitted it completely you wouldn’t know the difference except a larger bank account.

 

[Phids]

Ron Henry(who profits off you applying it) recommends monthly applications as long as the ground isn’t frozen.

Why do you say that? Does Ron Henry have part ownership of Site One or Lesco now? I know that Ron used to recommend Carbon Pro G and feature it in his videos a few years ago but he seems to have moved on to other products since then.

 

[Mightyquinn]

Why do you say that? Does Ron Henry have part ownership of Site One or Lesco now? I know that Ron used to recommend Carbon Pro G and feature it in his videos a few years ago but he seems to have moved on to other products since then.

He sells it through his Golf Course Lawn Store that he has so I guess if you buy it through your local Site One you wouldn't be directly enriching him. He still does apply it every month of the year but there isn't any "science" that it actually does anything positive for your lawn. The money spent on that could be used elsewhere to actually improve your lawn.

I stand corrected, I just checked and Ron sells the Mirimichi Green and Site One sells the Carbon Pro G. I still believe they are two sides of the same coin.

 

[Phids]

I stand corrected, I just checked and Ron sells the Mirimichi Green and Site One sells the Carbon Pro G. I still believe they are two sides of the same coin.

I am under the impression that Mirimichi Green is a company that produces some of the ingredients that go into Carbon Pro G, but Lesco actually makes the product. Site One then sells it.

I'm curious as to why you say there's no positive benefit to your lawn. If nothing else, isn't it just a good form of carbon? I last bought some a few years ago and it was much cheaper than Humichar.

 

[Redtwin]

I have not seen any improvement with the use of expensive fertilizers that report to add carbon, chicken poop, or whatever to the formula. I have also not seen any poor results from not using them. For me, I get a balanced formula locally from my big box store for a quarter the price per pound of NPK and ignore all the hype with expensive brands. Feed the turf and it will create organic matter through root cycling. I prefer to spend my lawn budget on decent equipment, pre-emergents, and good pest controls.

 

[Mightyquinn]

How much Carbon does your soil need? Do you know of a soil test that recommends it? I’m just trying to point out that you are applying stuff to your lawn that doesn’t really do anything positive and your money could be spent better elsewhere.

 

[Phids]

How much Carbon does your soil need? Do you know of a soil test that recommends it? I’m just trying to point out that you are applying stuff to your lawn that doesn’t really do anything positive and your money could be spent better elsewhere.

You may be right about homeowners not knowing exactly how much to apply, but studies seem to show it has quite a positive impact on landscapes. A fact sheet from Washington State Univ. mentions these as some of the benefits:

• raising soil pH
• retaining nutrients that might otherwise leach
• binding up bad heavy metals
• helping beneficial microbes
• lowering levels of bad bacteria
• improving aeration
• helping retain moisture

In addition, because biochar can remain in the soil for centuries, it can a permanent positive impact on soil structure. In fact, I would think that applying biochar regularly would make it less necessary to apply as much other nutrients to the lawn over the long term, thereby saving money in the long run.

I have not seen any improvement with the use of expensive fertilizers that report to add carbon, chicken poop, or whatever to the formula. I have also not seen any poor results from not using them. For me, I get a balanced formula locally from my big box store for a quarter the price per pound of NPK and ignore all the hype with expensive brands. Feed the turf and it will create organic matter through root cycling. I prefer to spend my lawn budget on decent equipment, pre-emergents, and good pest controls.

I think the idea is that biochar makes it less necessary to add as much NPK over time because it's a permanent fix to the soil structure. I understand that there are lawn treatment gimmicks out there that just waste money, but my impression was that biochar is the real deal. BTW, last time I bought Carbon Pro-G a few years ago, it was $25/40lb.bag, so it wasn't terribly expensive.

 

[Mightyquinn]

I am not saying BioChar or any of the other humic/Carbon products are bad for your lawn/soil but there isn't anything out there stating how much you should add to your soil to get the results that you are looking for. There are a lot of catch words in that document you posted also that state "can" which to me means it may or may not do anything. Also, doing some math, 1 cu/ft of soil weighs roughly 100lbs, given that fact. 1,000 sq/ft of soil at 6 inches deep weighs around 50,000 lbs(100 x 1000 ÷ 2). So in order to get just 1% of the soil as Carbon/Biochar you would need to apply 500 lbs of product and at $25/40lbs you would need 12.5 bags which would cost you $312+tax for every 1,000 sq/ft of lawn you have. I understand that you wouldn't be applying this all at once so the cost would be spread out over time but if you are applying 10lbs/K at a time you would need 50 applications which is a little over 4 years if you are applying it monthly all year long. I'm just curious at what % of saturation do you start gaining the so called benefits of this stuff.

I haven't seen any evidence otherwise that would say this stuff works any better than the traditional NPK + Soil test method that has been used successfully for decades.

Edit I forgot to factor in that most of these Humic/Carbon/Biochar products are not 100% AI so you must factor that into the equation also.

 

[rjw0283]

I am not saying BioChar or any of the other humic/Carbon products are bad for your lawn/soil but there isn't anything out there stating how much you should add to your soil to get the results that you are looking for. There are a lot of catch words in that document you posted also that state "can" which to me means it may or may not do anything. Also, doing some math, 1 cu/ft of soil weighs roughly 100lbs, given that fact. 1,000 sq/ft of soil at 6 inches deep weighs around 50,000 lbs(100 x 1000 ÷ 2). So in order to get just 1% of the soil as Carbon/Biochar you would need to apply 500 lbs of product and at $25/40lbs you would need 12.5 bags which would cost you $312+tax for every 1,000 sq/ft of lawn you have. I understand that you wouldn't be applying this all at once so the cost would be spread out over time but if you are applying 10lbs/K at a time you would need 50 applications which is a little over 4 years if you are applying it monthly all year long. I'm just curious at what % of saturation do you start gaining the so called benefits of this stuff.

I haven't seen any evidence otherwise that would say this stuff works any better than the traditional NPK + Soil test method that has been used successfully for decades.

Edit I forgot to factor in that most of these Humic/Carbon/Biochar products are not 100% AI so you must factor that into the equation also.

I think you would be better just getting 312 bucks in 1 dollar bills and shredding it and dumping it every 1000 sq ft.

Then some guy would come a long and claim you get better results with 20-dollar bills...

 

[Phids]

Alright, since there seem to be some anti-biochar sentiments floating around in this thread, I'll leave these links here for people to make up their own minds (testing has been done to a variety of vegetation types and is ongoing). As for me, I would consider it a great addition for landscapes for long-term health if one has the budget - not to replace nutrients, but to reduce as much need for them over time. For me, cost is the only real downside (which is why I have only tried CP-G and not Humichar).

• Effects of biochar on waterlogging and the associated change in micro-ecological environment of maize rhizosphere soil in saline-alkali land - "Biochar addition reduces pH, lower bulk density, higher soil organic carbon, increased available nitrogen and available phosphorus, greater relative abundance of eutrophic bacteria, and stronger activities of microbial secretase in the soil."
• Biochar helps hold water, saves money - "In one comprehensively studied plot of sandy soil operated by the University of Nebraska-Lincoln’s Agricultural Water Management Network, Kroeger calculated a specific water savings of 37.9% for soil amended with biochar. Her figures included average rainfall and irrigation levels for the summer of 2019."
• Biochar nearly doubles peanut yield in student’s research - "...biochar neutralized the soil’s acidity, enhanced the soil’s moisture retention, and increased crop growth."
• The Pros and Cons of Biochar in Horticulture - "Biochar reduces fertilizer runoff and potentially reduces fertilizer needs. Most importantly, biochar stores carbon for centuries."
• Innovation at Work: Breaking ground on next-generation agricultural markets - "The potential for the biochar market in the United States is vast, said ARTi Project Manager Melany Estrella said. Biochar can serve farmers with fields measured in hundreds of acres, but it can also benefit gardeners and landscapers working on a much smaller scale."

 

[rjw0283]

I would be all aboard the biochar train if I could buy a yard of it for 100 bucks. But 20-40 bucks for a 40-50 pound bag is out of my price point.
I bet it works well, but the amount you have to put down and the price they charge for the stuff is not reasonable.

 

[krusej23]

Nobody ever talks about the downsides of biochar. It's always, it could maybe do this, it could maybe do that if you apply a dump truck load of it to your yard every year. That second article you posted @Phids shows the water savings but never states how much biochar they applied or how much that cost them to temporarily change the soil structure.

It has it's drawbacks and it should not be recommended everywhere. A great point by @Mightyquinn saying that there isn't a soil test recommending biochar besides maybe some of the online ones that are selling you their magic products instead of NPK. Look at some of the drawbacks and calculate how much NPK and/or better ingredients of NPK for your lawn that you could apply. Or look at it like if I don't apply this $70 worth of biochar that I don't know what I'm going to get out of it, I could irrigate $70 worth of water and not stress the plant out during a drought period.

 

[krusej23]

@Phids I stand corrected, I read the actual study about the water savings claim. These are the rates they applied their biochar.
Low rate - 92lbs per 1000 sq ft
Medium rate - 501lbs per 1000 sq ft
High rate - 1024lbs per 1000 sq ft

So at the low rate you are having to apply $50 per 1000 sq ft. No thanks!

 

[Phids]

So at the low rate you are having to apply $50 per 1000 sq ft. No thanks!

But that's just considering the water savings benefit, among the other benefits. However, your point about the cost is still a good one, and is probably why it's not more widely used now. I did read about some other drawbacks, such as performance possibly being affected by the source of the biochar (shells, wood, etc.). It does seem like there is quite a lot of ongoing research being done, including ways to increase its positive benefits to the soil. I suspect as more long-term studies are completed, we'll see more manufacturers for residential lawns creating better products with biochar at lower prices.

 

[krusej23]

I agree that it will be interesting what research will say. The amount of biochar needed to get the water savings is an astronomical amount for a lawn. Maybe if it doesn't take much to help nutrient uptake then it could be helpful. The more economical thing to do is to throw small amounts of npk out at a time so the grass uses it all instead of it leaching.

 

[rjw0283]

It may work, but I do think YouTubers and companies are overinflating the results to sell a cheap product to manufacture at high prices.

 

[azgasser]

I am guilty of falling for the hype of lots of products out there especially early in my lawn care craziness. If you don’t ask yourself is this really working for the $$$ I am spending you are just blindly throwing money at a perceived problem. You can’t prove a negative though. Once you add any it along with a myriad of other products how do you know which if any have helped? I look at all the humic acid, micros, soil conditioners and other products I have thrown down or sprayed and once I stopped and did the math like above I knew that it would make zero difference for the little amounts used. The same goes for all these micronutrients as well. We are shown before and after pictures but those can be enhanced easily to sell a product. Learned this from years of car care. I test the soil yearly to make sure nothing is too out of whack. Fertilize, cut, aerate and overseed as needed. I don’t bag the grass and mulch the leaves. Weed/pest control is fine tuned to your needs. I believe that if it came from the ground it should go back in. One lesson to take away from all this, if there was a “best” we would all be doing it. There are a myriad of opinions and products out there, all wanting you to join them in a quest for a “perfect” lawn.

 

[Phids]

I am guilty of falling for the hype of lots of products out there especially early in my lawn care craziness. If you don’t ask yourself is this really working for the $$$ I am spending you are just blindly throwing money at a perceived problem.

This gets into the philosophy of lawncare and what your goals are. For me, it would ideally be to have my lawn more or less on "cruise control" over the long term so that I could have good results on minimal inputs, regardless of season, dryspells, etc. Sure, I could dump nitrogen or iron onto my lawn and get a quick fix for a nice-looking lawn in any given week, but that could cause problems down the road, causing me to buy other things to fix it. It just seems to me that fixing the soil is probably a wiser investment long term than only treating the grass itself.

 

[FATC1TY]

This gets into the philosophy of lawncare and what your goals are. For me, it would ideally be to have my lawn more or less on "cruise control" over the long term so that I could have good results on minimal inputs, regardless of season, dryspells, etc. Sure, I could dump nitrogen or iron onto my lawn and get a quick fix for a nice-looking lawn in any given week, but that could cause problems down the road, causing me to buy other things to fix it. It just seems to me that fixing the soil is probably a wiser investment long term than only treating the grass itself.

Similar idea I have myself, but I think soil is something that is ever changing too. Erosion, and other elements will eventually strip the yard, so it’s not always “fix the dirt not the plant” but more of “if the plant likes it in my dirt then let’s keep going”.

You could have great dirt and nasty grass if you don’t complete the cultural practice part.


I’m at the point after several years where my yard is truly on auto pilot, with the occasional weather issue that causes fungus or doesn’t let me mow as often as ideal.

Plenty of examples here where people will spray twice a week, our down all kinds of stuff, and still have problems or not quite happy with the end results. All these crazy chemical cocktails for their premergent programs and fertilizer programs. When a lot of this stuff is causing another issue down the road!


I scalp, apply the same fertilizer I have for a few years, spray pgr monthly along with insect control, put down the occasional fungicide during a preventative weather occasion, and mow. My yard looks way better for it, and I’m not analyzing every product or motive when I do so.