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but have you ever seen stripes on weeeed….iykyk movie references.
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:LOL: if only we could figure out a way to smoke this cultivar, I'd be in business!
Oh man, if you could just mow it and bag the clippings.........🤑
 

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Discussion Starter · #344 ·
Man, that weather turned on a dime. A few snow squalls and now feels like it's all over.

The folks up north are getting hammered. Anyone in Buffalo?
Sky Plant Snow Building Fence


Trying to wrap my head around the possibiltiy of being done almost a whole month earlier than last year. The ground is below freezing. Hoping I can still fit the winterizer in.

Before Antarctica:
Sky Plant Green Window Tree

Plant Green Grass Biome Tree

Plant Green Grass Land lot Flooring
 

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Discussion Starter · #346 ·
Thanks @Chris LI. We just entered a nice little stretch of 50s air temps / 40s soil temps and heavy rain predicted on Sunday. This weekend should be favorable for the winterizing crowd.

Gave the yard and test plot a Thanksgiving haircut - first time in 11 days. I'm thinking I'll get one more mow, most likely of the charity variety.
Plant Property Water Building Sky
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Plant Window Land lot Grass Road surface
 

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Oh, haha it's probably just iron, but I feel like since it's a Scott's EX product, it'll work,lol
Active ingredient:
Ferrous sulfate monohydrate: 17.50%

Moss out at Lowes has 32% of the same active ingredient. Same cost as MossEx, but it's available locally instead of Amazon. I'll try that in a few spots and let you know.
Not sure why, but the Scotts also has some lime (or other calcium) in it.

Thanks @Chris LI. We just entered a nice little stretch of 50s air temps / 40s soil temps and heavy rain predicted on Sunday. This weekend should be favorable for the winterizing crowd.

Gave the yard and test plot a Thanksgiving haircut - first time in 11 days. I'm thinking I'll get one more mow, most likely of the charity variety.
View attachment 3936 View attachment 3937 View attachment 3938
Yup, same here. 40-50 soil temps. Ideal for the winterizer fert app.

Grass looks great.
 

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Discussion Starter · #350 ·
Man, that bent is looking good. Is it filling in the test plot already, or did you just have great even germination? View attachment 3948
👍 I agree, I like it. I'm very tempted to reno the backyard to bent (pending approval from the queen, and we'll see how the plot responds to disease pressure in early summer). I can tell it will never be as dark as the bluegrass, but there is something special about the color. Several courses use this cultivar as a monostand. This one is Holiday Farms which is outside of Indy:
Vertebrate Organism Terrestrial plant Grass Font


There was some washout in the plot initially, but the area is so small - it was easy to stay on top of reseeding. I actually threw down too much seed, and it thinned out naturally throughout the fall. Now it looks nice and even.
 

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Discussion Starter · #351 ·
Put down winterizer in the dark last night. 1 lb/k granular N with hand spreader. With only 5 settings (none of them ideal) it was difficult to get even spread. But I wasn't looking for surgical precision with this app.

Pretty good rain rolled in few hours later (didn't have rain gauge out). I think it's sufficiently watered in.
Sky Plant Fence Tree Land lot


N totals 2022:
Yard - 6.25 lbs/k (total fall 4.3 lbs)
Test plots - 3.8 lbs/k CBL; 3.5 lbs/k Prosperity
 

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Put down winterizer in the dark last night. 1 lb/k granular N with hand spreader. With only 5 settings (none of them ideal) it was difficult to get even spread. But I wasn't looking for surgical precision with this app.

Pretty good rain rolled in few hours later (didn't have rain gauge out). I think it's sufficiently watered in.
View attachment 3983

N totals 2022:
Yard - 6.25 lbs/k (total fall 4.3 lbs)
Test plots - 3.8 lbs/k CBL; 3.5 lbs/k Prosperity
So when does the grass start using that 1lb N? Does it use it now, or when it wakes up in the spring? Or some of both?

Is a whole pound of N in one application not a big deal because you did a granular application and it's time released?
 

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Discussion Starter · #353 ·
So when does the grass start using that 1lb N? Does it use it now, or when it wakes up in the spring? Or some of both?

Is a whole pound of N in one application not a big deal because you did a granular application and it's time released?
I think the goal is that it will be stored over winter and translate to quicker spring green up. So if you equate "using" the N to visible results, then that would happen next year. I expect little if any response now.

I did fast release. I'm not worried about burn because the lawn is getting ready to sleep and not taking in nutrients rapidly. If you think of dog peeing on the lawn in the winter, you don't see the spots until the spring - same concept.
 

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@steffen707

I think the goal is that it will be stored over winter and translate to quicker spring green up. So if you equate "using" the N to visible results, then that would happen next year. I expect little if any response now.

I did fast release. I'm not worried about burn because the lawn is getting ready to sleep and not taking in nutrients rapidly. If you think of dog peeing on the lawn in the winter, you don't see the spots until the spring - same concept.
Based on studies by Soldat, et. al., if we are going to apply late season N (e.g. a final winterizing app), our N rate for it should be more like 0.25 lb of N than 1.0 lb, because very little can be taken up as the soil gets cold. I apply a bit more than this, but still fairly low. Another concern is that urea should be applied earlier than ammonium sulfate because its conversion is slowed (and stability increased) in soil temps that are cool (e.g. 40-50F). It behaves more like a slow release N source in such conditions (so it also will not burn unless you really over apply it), but can also leach before it's taken up if there is excessive rain. I did a comprehensive write-up on much of this in my own journal a few days ago when I applied my final Winterizing N application, and also discussed some related topics on N there over the last few weeks.

A second option (instead of pausing and then applying a final winterizer N app) is to spoon-feed with liquid apps of Urea (foliar) straight through from October or so until the end of the season, continually tapering the N rate downward and/or increasing the frequency between the apps. A bit more labor. But little waste. This is the method the research suggests. I don't have the time for this method, personally. They probably suggest it because the research was conducted in sand-based systems, which are more prone to N leaching than a typical native soil.
 
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This is the method the research suggests.
Can you point to a study/research that suggest foliar N in winter?


Based on studies by Soldat, et. al., if we are going to apply late season N (e.g. a final winterizing app), our N rate for it should be more like 0.25 lb of N than 1.0 lb,
I think Soldat study found that after applying 1lb of N/ksqft, only around 0.2lb of N/ksqft actually got inside the plant, the rest was wasted. This is mainly because the ET rate of the plant is very slow with cold temps and less sunlight (ET ~= mass/energy transfer rate). If water is not moving thru the plant, then it is not going to transport nitrogen. I have not read the study in a couple of years but that's what I remember from the study and a webcast.
 

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@g-man

That was the gist of it from my memory as well. Lack of mass flow due to reduced ET rate resulted in less labeled N being taken up, and more of what was not used leaching. Of course, you can't necessarily definitively extrapolate much about other N rates or soil media types from it, other than the conditions they used. However, their suggestion, all things considered, was the reduction of N rate if you do plan to buck their recommendation and still apply late season N apps (even going so far as to do foliar apps at extremely low rates). That is the part I have followed (the reduction in N rate, but not the foliar part).

I have also moved the application date up by 2 weeks or so as of this year (closer to 50F soil temps) as well, in order to give the urea component of my fertilizer more time to convert to usable ammonium N, and for the plant to have more time to take up the direct ammoniacal N contained in my fert app as well (to help compensate for the lower uptake rate due to low ET). Essentially, the final app in my case becomes more of a "topping off" of the soil N before everything shuts down, (rather than a stand-alone app that I'm relying on in isolation).

Finally I've added AMS and methylene urea as well to help give even faster and slower N availability components, respectively, and to add some stability. (Basically, I'm using a product that is 50% AMS.) But keeping the N rate low is probably the most important part, since very little N gets utilized and the rest tends to get into the environment.

If I could also get something with a denitrification inhibitor only (but not a urease inhibitor), I would try that as well. Not sure if a urea product like that exists on the turf market, though. Usually, urea with a denitrification inhibitor also has a urease inhibitor (e.g. Uflexx), which I feel is probably contraindicated in low soil temps, as conversion to ammonium by urease is already slow.
 

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Discussion Starter · #357 ·
@Green @g-man thanks for breaking it down guys. On the reduced uptake, that was the way I understood at a high level but didn't realize ET rate was the main driver. Very helpful to have the technical reasoning.

Agree 1lb is likely overkill and not the most envrionmentally thoughtful approach. Thinking I'll try a lower rate next year.
 

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Can you point to a study/research that suggest foliar N in winter?
If memory serves me, that particular recommendation for downward N rate tapered foliar N apps during the mid to late Fall timeframe (right up until the growth stops--no "pause" needed because N rates are so low) was contained in the webinar on this topic on turfnet.

I believe osuturfman/R.D. has also mentioned this approach at some point. (He was one of the first people to bring up the results of those studies (on late season N having low uptake), and to bring multiple permutations and interpretations of those concepts to our attention, in any case, which I believe he did as far back as 2015, if not earlier, on another site, where he got some flack for it). I was already incorporating some enhanced efficiency N tweaks by that point in time, and learned a lot from his take on this topic after really dissecting it. He continues to educate us on this topic today.
 
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In summary, you cannot cheat mother nature. It is very easy to make a very complex scheme and believe those actions will yield the desired outcome. Foliar, AMS, methylene urea, or denitrification inhibitor are meaningless if the plant engine to move nitrogen thru is already shutting down (very low movement of thru the cells). The only remote potential is for some of the nitrogen to remain "frozen" in the soil thru winter and available in spring when it thaws. But this is a just a roll of the dice (warmer/rainy winter?). Far easier and more predictable to apply nitrogen in the spring.

Bf7, I wont continue to sidetrack your journal. The yard looks great.
 
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